20 Court Reporters: HARRY RAPAPORT OWEN M. WICKER 21 United States District Court Two Uniondale Avenue 22 Uniondale, New York 11553 (516) 485-6558 23 24 Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript produced by Computer-Assisted Transcription 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3061
1 M O R N I N G S E S S I O N
2
3 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
4 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
5 courtroom.)
6
7 W E N D I S P R I N G E R ,
8 called as a witness, having been previously
9 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
10 follows:
11
12 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury,
13 please be seated. I want to thank you for doing a valiant
14 job and getting here on time almost. Most of you did. I
15 understand that there possibly would be a delay. However,
16 we are getting started in pretty good time considering the
17 weather.
18 You may proceed.
19 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, your Honor.
20 Before I proceed, I would like to just clarify
21 the record on some of the exhibits that we entered into
22 evidence. That long list of exhibits that I read into the
23 record on Tuesday, in addition to the ones which were 24 excluded from that list, there are a few more that need to 25 be excluded. And they are 42-F as in Frank, 44-C, D and
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3062
1 E, Charley, Daniel, Edward; 49-E, F, G, Edward, Frank and
2 George. And 50-E and F. 50 Edward and Frank.
3 In addition to that, your Hon
or, I showed
4 Ms. Springer yesterday a number of exhibits that
5 Ms. Springer described as order forms. There are five in
6 which I misstated the letter of the exhibit following the
7 number, and I would like to clarify that.
8 I called one of them 21-B, as in Boy. It is
9 actually 21-C. 25-B is actually 25-C. 27-B is 27-C.
10 16-B is actually 16-C. And 38-B is 38-C, in fact.
11
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Cont'd)
13 BY MS. SCOTT:
14 Q Do you recall testifying yesterday about checking
15 people's qualifications before admitted to Sterling Who's
16 Who and Who's Who Worldwide?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Do you remember testifying yesterday you were
19 approximately 22 at the time?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Is that correct?
22 A No, it is not correct.
23 Q How old were you at the time? 24 A 23, going on 24. 25 Q And how much education have you
had at that time?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3063 Springer-direct/Scott
1 A I graduated high school.
2 Q Do you recall testifying that Mr. Gordon would have
3 you change titles when the title didn't qualify for
4 memberships?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Can you recall the reason that Mr. Gordon gave you
7 for instructing you to do this?
8 A In the beginning I was instructed that there was
9 going to be -- shall I rephrase it, that there should be
10 business leaders and titles. I guess it distinguishes
11 what a business leader is all about, so you had a cashier,
12 it is not going to look good with presidents, CEO, and
13 CFOs in this Registry. So we would alter the titles in
14 terms of, like I was explaining yesterday, if there was an
15 assistant vice president, they would become an associate
16 vice president.
17 Q Can you describe some of the other types of changes
18 made to people's titles?
19 A Store managers were put down as operations managers,
20 or whatever their expertise would state would be the
21 beginning of their title. If it was operations, for their
22 expertise it would become operations manager.
23 Q Now, can you tell us what -- when these types of 24 people with lesser titles were accepted into the company? 25 A It depended on the membership.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3064 Springer-direct/Scott
1 Q What do you mean by that saying it depended on the
2 membership?
3 A Basically it was a lifetime, if one of the
4 salespeople sold a lifetime membership, and sometimes the
5 price of that was as high as $1,200, the person would be
6 included into the Registry.
7 Q How now, you also mentioned, I belie
ve yesterday,
8 that it depended on sales that week; is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And what did you mean by that?
11 A If the sales were low, and if a person that was at
12 one time not permitted to go into the Registry because of
13 their title, you know, if -- even if it was, let's say, if
14 the person was insistent and say I want it to be listed as
15 manager, and manager only, it would be included into the
16 Registry; when other times if it was say a five-year
17 member, there were times when he would say alter the
18 title.
19 Q What did you mean when you said it depended on the
20 sales that week?
21 A If the sales were low. If the sales were low anyone
22 would be taken.
23 Q Did anyone else instruct you to make these changes? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And who would those people be?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTE
R 3065 Springer-direct/Scott
1 A Under Mr. Gordon's orders, it would be the group
2 leaders at the time.
3 Q And who did those group leaders include?
4 A There was many. One of them is Tara Green Garboski.
5 One was Frank Martin. There was a lot, quite a few.
6 From Sterling and Rob Lombert, L O M B E R T, I
7 think is the spelling and Mike Esposito, I don't know how
8 to spell his last name, but he was known as Mike Powers.
9 I would a lot of time all them on the phone and tell them
10 about members, with respect to the order forms.
11 Q Can you tell us if you know the name that Rob Lombert
12 used as a salesperson?
13 A Rob lamb.
14 Q Can you tell us specifically what Mr. Gordon said an
15 owner of a company should be called if that owner became a
16 member?
17 A They should be the president.
18 Q What reason did Mr. Gordon give
for that?
19 A Anybody can be an owner of anything. So president
20 was more of an upscale title. And that's what he wanted
21 to appear on the Registry.
22 Q And what instructions, if any, did he give you as to
23 what to do, if the customer appeared to be the only 24 employee of their business? 25 A It would become incorporated at the end.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3066 Springer-direct/Scott
1 Q What reason, if any did he give for that?
2 A So it wouldn't look like it was just one person
3 operating the company.
4 Q How often were people who were willing to pay money
5 for memberships actually rejected?
6 A I can't think of anyone who was rejected.
7 I can think of a couple, but --
8 Q The times you saw people being rejected, can you tell
9 us what their occupations were?
10 A It had nothing
to do with the occupations. It had to
11 do with the company they worked for.
12 Q What can you tell us about that?
13 A The company was affiliated with a company that he had
14 a previous suit against, or they had had a previous suit
15 against him. The company was Marqui Who's Who. They were
16 a competitor. And at one time, I assume he was going
17 through a CD-ROM, and he came across -- you were able to
18 punch in the name, and it would show you whoever it was
19 that was listed in that company. And I believe the
20 company was Reed Publishing. I am not sure if it was
21 listed as Reed Publishing, but it was a company in New
22 Jersey. But he wanted them and demanded that the orders
23 be pulled. There were probably about eight or nine 24 people. And he had two or three people assigned to it, to 25 figure out why they were let in. And he refunded the
HA
RRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3067 Springer-direct/Scott
1 money. He didn't want them to be in the Registry. He
2 wanted them out.
3 Q Did you ever see people get accepted for membership
4 whom you feel were not qualified?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Can you tell us an example of those people?
7 A There was a slaughterhouse which is one, where -- an
8 owner of a slaughterhouse in the Midwest. And I felt it
9 was totally inappropriate to have someone in there who
10 slaughtered animals. It is not something -- if I was in a
11 Registry, and there are people out there into animal
12 activism as I am, I would be appalled that someone would
13 be included like that.
14 Q Can you tell us other instances of people you feel
15 were not appropriate for the Registry?
16 A There was a beauty salon manager of Macy's or Saks
17 Fifth Avenue, one o
f the upscale stores.
18 Q Can you tell us any others?
19 A There was a restaurant manager from McDonald's who
20 was a manager. There were teachers, priests, quite a few.
21 Q Were people ever accepted as members who were not
22 paid -- did not pay to be accepted?
23 A No. 24 Q Were people listed in the book like that, without 25 paying?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3068 Springer-direct/Scott
1 A Yes.
2 Q Can you give us an example of what you mean there.
3 A There was some high celebrity forms of people.
4 Barbara Walters was one of them, I remember. There was
5 Lee Iacoca,. There was a couple. Quite a few.
6 Q Had these well known people agreed to become members
7 in Who's Who Worldwide or Sterling Who's Who?
8 A To my knowledge.
9 MR. LEE: Objection.
10 THE COURT: What is the nature of
the objection?
11 MR. TRABULUS: Foundation, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: You say that these celebrities were
13 listed who did not pay?
14 THE WITNESS: They did not pay, and they were not
15 notified they were going to be in the registry.
16 THE COURT: How do you know that?
17 THE WITNESS: I was instructed by Bruce Gordon to
18 put them into the Registry.
19 One of the high up ones was Colin Powell. He sat
20 behind me at my desk and instructed me how his listing
21 should be put into the Registry or into the database.
22 THE COURT: How do you know they didn't apply for
23 membership or pay? 24 THE WITNESS: Because the order form would have 25 been attached to it.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3069 Springer-direct/Scott
1 THE COURT: Did you find an order form?
2 THE WITNESS: There was no order form an
d no
3 card.
4 THE COURT: Overruled.
5 Q Can you give us any other examples of such
6 celebrities?
7 A There was Marsha Mason, but she was legitimate. She
8 did fill out some kind of a lead card, or sent in, or she
9 could have called, I am not sure.
10 Q What if any celebrities did you personally input into
11 the system?
12 A I pout in Colin Powell. I put in the CEO of IBM. I
13 didn't put in Barbara Walters. There was Boris Yeltsin
14 who I didn't put in. Liz Sautter was asked to do that.
15 Lee Iacoca.
16 Q Who asked you to put these people into the
17 membership?
18 A Mr. Gordon.
19 Q Now, under what circumstances would he ask you to
20 admit such people?
21 A Repeat the question?
22 Q Under what circumstances would he ask you to admit a
23 famous person in this manner? 24 MR. JENKS: Objection. 25 THE
COURT: Overruled.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3070 Springer-direct/Scott
1 A He instructed me, or stood behind me while I was at
2 my computer and would tell me to list the information.
3 Q Now, what happened when Lee Iacoca's name was put
4 into the Registry?
5 A There was a phone call that came in, I don't know if
6 it was his personal secretary, spokesperson, whoever it
7 might be, who was irate of the fact that this person --
8 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
9 MR. JENKS: Objection.
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 Sustained. That answer is stricken. The jury is
12 instructed to disregard it.
13 Q Ms. Springer, after Mr. Iacoca was admitted as an
14 entry, did you receive any further instructions with
15 respect to his entry?
16 A To take it out of the database.
17 Q Who did you receive those instructions from?<
BR> 18 A Mr. Gordon.
19 Q Did Mr. Gordon give you any reasons for that?
20 A Not that I can recall.
21 Q When a customer submitted a lead card, what if any
22 efforts were taken to verify the information with respect
23 to what is on the lead card? 24 MR. TRABULUS: Objection. Foundation, your 25 Honor.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3071 Springer-direct/Scott
1 THE COURT: Are you familiar with what efforts,
2 if any were made to use the lead cards after they were
3 received?
4 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 THE WITNESS: The only communication that went on
7 to verify any type of verification of the legitimacy of
8 the person who filled out the card was through the
9 salesperson, through the telemarketer. I did not
10 personally get on the phone and verify the information.
11 Ms. Green did not get on the phone and verify the
12 information. Nor did any of the group leaders.
13 Q Was there a board of governors at the company?
14 A No, there was not.
15 Q Was there a board of public affairs?
16 A No. There was a public relations department.
17 Q Were those people in charge of examining people's
18 qualifications to determine if they should be granted
19 membership?
20 A No.
21 Q Did you ever meet anyone on the company who said they
22 were on the board of governors or board of review?
23 A No. 24 Q Were you aware of any meetings held at the company to 25 go over people's qualifications and decide as to whether
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3072 Springer-direct/Scott
1 they are qualified for membership?
2 A No.
3 Q Did anybody other than yourself regularly review
4 customers' qualifications before they were entered into
5 the company's membership?
6 A No.
7 MR. TRABULUS: Objection. Foundation.
8 THE COURT: Do you know whether anyone else other
9 than you reviewed the qualifications of members?
10 THE WITNESS: There was no one.
11 THE COURT: Overruled.
12 Q Was this the case at both Who's Who Worldwide and
13 Sterling Who's Who?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Were there --
16 A I would like to comment.
17 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 Please don't comment. Listen to the question,
20 please.
21 THE WITNESS: I am elaborating on the question.
22 THE COURT: The last question?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, which is do I know if people 24 from either one of the companies -- 25 THE COURT: All right, you may.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REP
ORTER 3073 Springer-direct/Scott
1 THE WITNESS: Okay.
2 I wasn't physically at Sterling Who's Who, so I
3 cannot tell you if they called them. But considering the
4 fact that there were only two group leaders, and sometimes
5 there was three, there was no physically, or possible way
6 within an eight hour period of the day that they can call
7 the thousand of lead cards that were distributed for the
8 telemarketers. There is just no way you could do it.
9 Q Were there any written criteria you used when
10 reviewing customer qualifications?
11 A No.
12 Q When determining as to whether a person is qualified,
13 did you have any other information about them aside from
14 their title and the company they are working for?
15 A They occasionally sent in resumes.
16 Q How often did that happen?
17 A Some people would send them in. I can't tell yo
u on
18 tell you on a scale how many. There were some people who
19 sent them in.
20 Q Now what -- withdrawn.
21 Now, do you recall testifying that once a person
22 is cleared for entry into the membership system, that
23 their names were then submitted to the data entry people? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And do you remember testifying that the data entry
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3074 Springer-direct/Scott
1 people would furnish you invoices?
2 A Yes.
3 Q What would happen to those invoices at that point?
4 A They were checked for accuracy, to make sure that the
5 data entry, whoever was, you know, processing the orders,
6 didn't make a mistake.
7 Q And who checked these invoices for accuracy?
8 A I usually did.
9 Q What happened to the invoices after that?
10 A The ones with mistakes on them were
fixed by the
11 person who made the, you know, spelling, typographical
12 error. The rest were bundled up. They were all bundled
13 up eventually and put in the back for filing.
14 Q Were they sent out?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Who were they sent to?
17 A They were sent to the customers.
18 Q What, if any, information, was provided with the
19 invoice to the customer?
20 A There was times when we had brochures, there were
21 brochures to show what the wall plaque would look like.
22 In the brochure they had a picture of the Registry. There
23 was literature. I can't say that I sat there and went 24 through every piece of it. I didn't. I think one time we 25 had a nomination ballot. That was at the latter part of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3075 Springer-direct/Scott
1 my employment it was toward the end, maybe the
last seven,
2 eight months, of my employment. It was before the company
3 was shut down.
4 Q I will get to the nominate ballot in a minute.
5 How were customers informed as to what
6 information about them would appear on the -- in the
7 Registry?
8 A It was right on the invoice.
9 Q And did the invoice indicate if any changes had been
10 made to the customer's title?
11 A Sure.
12 Q So, how did customers react to changes like that?
13 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
14 MR. JENKS: Objection.
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
16 Q Were you ever instructed to make any changes pursuant
17 to a customer's request.
18 A If the person changed --
19 MR. JENKS: Objection.
20 THE COURT: What ground?
21 MR. JENKS: The question calls for a yes or no
22 answer. Were you ever instructed to make any changes to a
23 customer? 24 THE COURT: You are quite right, Mr. Jenks. 25 Were you ever instructed to make changes when a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3076 Springer-direct/Scott
1 customer saw the invoice?
2 THE WITNESS: I was instructed.
3 Q And what instructions did you receive?
4 MR. DUNN: Objection, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Who did you get the instructions
6 from?
7 THE WITNESS: Mr. Gordon.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 Q What instructions did Mr. Gordon give you?
10 A We have the right to edit. And if they put down that
11 they wanted their title to remain assistant vice
12 president, because that is what their title was, I was not
13 to change it. We had the right to edit.
14 THE COURT: I don't understand.
15 Mr. Gordon said you should continue to make the
16 changes, or if a customer --
17 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't --
18 THE COURT: If a customer complained, what would
19 you do?
20 THE WITNESS: If the customer complained I
21 wouldn't speak there -- sit there and speak to them about
22 it. It would be passed on to one of the group leaders.
23 THE COURT: You don't know what happened, whether 24 the name was put back in the original form or the changed 25 form?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3077 Springer-direct/Scott
1 THE WITNESS: There were times that they were
2 changed, because the customer was irate and they were
3 cancelled. So there were times. If Ms. Green or whoever
4 the group leader was explained to them, we have a right to
5 edit, and we have a certain criteria, and the Registry is
6 formatted in a certain way, the customers, some of them
7 would understand. A lot of them would not.
8 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your
Honor, how is
9 there foundation for this, unless she testified she
10 listened in on a conversation with Ms. Green, or
11 Ms. Garboski, whoever she is referring to?
12 THE COURT: Did you hear this, did you hear
13 Ms. Green say this to the customer?
14 THE WITNESS: That we have the right to edit,
15 yes.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 Q Did you ever see invoices that had customer requested
18 changes on them?
19 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, I was a little
20 disturbed about the way the gentleman was looking at me,
21 and shaking his head. Can you repeat that?
22 MR. JENKS: I would ask that be stricken from the
23 record. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 The jury will strike it.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3078 Springer-direct/Scott
1 THE WITNESS: I apologize, but --
2 THE COURT: Excuse me,
when I speak, please do
3 not speak at the same time.
4 That comment is stricken. You are to disregard.
5 Q Did you ever receive invoices from customers that had
6 suggested changes on them?
7 A Yes, I did.
8 Q And did such suggested changes ever involve their
9 titles?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And what did you do in those situations when the
12 customer wanted a change in the title?
13 A They would be passed on like I was explaining
14 before. It would be passed on to the group leader. I
15 would not take it upon myself.
16 If it was an associate -- as I was explaining, an
17 associate vice president, that's how we listed it. If
18 they changed it back to assistant, I was instructed to
19 ignore the change, which I did.
20 Q And who gave you those instructions?
21 A Mr. Gordon.
22 Q You mentioned nomination ballots just a moment ago.
23 Do you recall that? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Can you tell us when you first saw nomination ballots
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3079 Springer-direct/Scott
1 first used at the company, at Who's Who Worldwide?
2 A I would say '94.
3 Q How is it you remember that?
4 A It was a different color card. It was a gray card.
5 Q And what were these ballots used for?
6 A They were sent with the invoice to the customer. And
7 some of them would send them back nominating, you know,
8 one of their peers, or whoever, you know, was worthy of
9 being in the Registry. They had to have found something,
10 you know, and a person who wanted them to be in the
11 Registry.
12 Q To your knowledge were such ballots ever used by
13 customers to nominate other people?
14 A Yes, they were.
15 Q Now, before that time -- withdrawn.
16 Before that time how often had new members been
17 admitted who were nominated by established members?
18 A Before the actual cards were created?
19 Q Before the nomination cards were created?
20 A I am sure there was a couple. I can't think of how
21 many. There was, I am sure a few.
22 Q After the nomination ballots came into use, how often
23 were new members admitted who had been nominated by 24 established members? 25 A There was, you know, a selective amount. I can't
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3080 Springer-direct/Scott
1 tell you that there was a hundred or fifty or three
2 thousand. There was a considerable amount, but I did see
3 the cards attached to the order forms.
4 Q Turning to another subject.
5 What, if anything, did Bruce Gordon or the group
6 leaders do to keep track of the way sales
people sold
7 memberships over the telephone?
8 A There was a sales sheet.
9 THE COURT: Hold it a moment, please.
10 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
11 proceedings.)
12 THE COURT: You may proceed.
13 Q You mentioned a sales sheet. What is a sales sheet?
14 A It is used to record the daily sales.
15 Q What, if anything, did Bruce Gordon and the group
16 leaders do to keep track as to what salespeople were
17 saying to customers over the telephone?
18 A Phone calls were monitored.
19 Q How were these phone calls monitored?
20 A Through a device in their telephone.
21 Q What kind of device is that?
22 A I am not sure exactly. They had -- the phone system
23 they had, you were able to -- there was a button you could 24 push, and I would say a code, I can't remember exactly 25 what it was.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR,
CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3081 Springer-direct/Scott
1 MR. SCHOER: Objection. She seems to be
2 guessing, Judge.
3 THE COURT: You say the phone calls were
4 monitored.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, they were.
6 THE COURT: How do you know that?
7 THE WITNESS: I was there while Ms. Green was
8 listening to phone calls. I was there --
9 THE COURT: What did you see? If you looked at
10 the phone, is there something attached to the phone?
11 THE WITNESS: There was a recorder of some type.
12 THE COURT: You saw it physically?
13 THE WITNESS: I saw -- at one time there was one
14 telemarketer they were watching closely. They played the
15 tape back to the salespeople. Usually it was the new
16 people that had started. They listened to them more
17 frequently than the established telemarketers that were
18 there for a long period of time.
19 THE COURT: My question is: Did you see what
20 device was used?
21 THE WITNESS: There was a microphone -- I am
22 sorry, a tape recorder.
23 THE COURT: Was it physically located on the 24 phone, under the phone, in the floor? In the ceiling? 25 THE WITNESS: It was on her desk.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3082 Springer-direct/Scott
1 THE COURT: Apart from the phone?
2 THE WITNESS: I don't remember looking. I
3 remember hearing the tape going. I remember walking in
4 there and handing her orders for her to hand back to the
5 salespeople. And I remember hearing her say to me that
6 she was listening to them, be quiet, sh sh.
7 THE COURT: Who is she?
8 THE WITNESS: Tara Green.
9 Q Did you ever use the equipment?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q On what occasion?
12 A It is a long story. I don't
know if you want me to
13 get into it.
14 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, if they are going to
15 do this, can we have an offer of proof at the bench? The
16 response suggests to me we may be on something that is
17 irrelevant.
18 THE COURT: Are you going to pursue this?
19 MS. SCOTT: We will skip this, your Honor.
20 Q Did you ever hear anybody at the company talk about
21 the use of this telephone monitoring system?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Who did you hear talk about it? 24 A I would hear the group leaders talk about it. 25 Q Specifically who did you hear?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3083 Springer-direct/Scott
1 A I heard Ms. Green speak about it.
2 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Gordon speaking about it?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Now, do you remember any particular incidents in
5 which you heard them speaking about it?
6 A Yes, I do.
7 Q And can you tell us about those?
8 A There was a phone call that was asked to be made by
9 Ms. Green by Mr. Gordon. He had wanted them to call up a
10 competitor of Who's Who and try to get information. She
11 was pretending that she was a customer interested in a
12 membership in there --
13 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
14 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained.
15 MR. SCHOER: I ask it be stricken.
16 THE COURT: Motion granted. It is stricken. The
17 jury is instructed to disregard it.
18 Q Ms. Springer, can you tell us what you heard the two
19 people at Who's Who Worldwide saying?
20 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
21 THE COURT: Is this about talking to a
22 competitor? Is this about calling a competitor?
23 MS. SCOTT: No. I believe it is about another 24 employee who was being monitored. 25 Q Is that correct, Ms. Springer?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3084 Springer-direct/Scott
1 A Are you referring to the one where I heard Rob Lamb?
2 Q Yes.
3 THE COURT: This talk about monitoring or calling
4 a competitor is stricken. You are to disregard that.
5 Q Did you ever hear anyone speaking about a specific
6 salesperson's performance that they had monitored over the
7 telephone?
8 A I had heard conversation between the group leaders,
9 Ms. Green, with telemarketers, telling them that -- what
10 they were saying was not the correct statement of the
11 pitch, they are not following the pitch.
12 Q What, if anything, did they say would happen to
13 somebody that would not follow the pitch?
14 A They would be fired.
15 Q Were you ever aware of anybody getting fired from the
16 company?
17 A I can't mention names. I can't remember names. Bu
t
18 there were people. As I explained a couple of days ago.
19 There were at least four or five hundred people in my
20 duration during my employment that were fired or left the
21 company. So I can't remember names.
22 Q Turning your attention to another subject, do you
23 know a person by the name of Martin Graham or Martin 24 Gross? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3085 Springer-direct/Scott
1 Q How do you know him?
2 A He worked at the company.
3 Q In what capacity?
4 A He was a telemarketer.
5 Q Did there come a time that he was arrested?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And when was that?
8 A I don't remember the date.
9 Q Was it a few years ago, a few months ago?
10 A I don't know if it was in '92, '93. I don't
11 remember.
12 Actually, I am sorry, it would have been in '92,
13 possibly.
14 MR. NELSON: Objection, your Honor. Can we have
15 a sidebar for a moment on this issue?
16 THE COURT: All right, come up.
17
18 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place
19 at the sidebar.)
20 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, based upon the testimony
21 elicited during the pretrial hearings, we are aware of the
22 fact that Mr. Gross, Mr. Graham, was an employee of West
23 previously, and apparently this arrest had to do with West 24 Publications. 25 THE COURT: Anything to do with this case?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3086 Springer-direct/Scott
1 MR. TRABULUS: Nothing at all.
2 MR. NELSON: Nothing at all.
3 He subsequently became an employee of Who's Who
4 Worldwide.
5 MR. WHITE: Not correct. He was an employee at
6 Who's Who when he was arrested. That's the arrest
she is
7 talking about.
8 THE COURT: What does it have to do with this
9 case.
10 MR. WHITE: We were going to get to it.
11 MS. SCOTT: There is going to be testimony that
12 at the time Bruce Gordon, Liz Sautter -- he instructed
13 them while the agents were there arresting him, they
14 should take the pitch sheets away.
15 THE COURT: I will let you bring out that federal
16 agents came on an unrelated matter, and at that time what
17 did you see with respect to the pitch sheets. Don't get
18 into the arrest of Graham. It has nothing to do with
19 this.
20 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, can she testify that
21 Ms. Sautter, Mr. Gordon's assistant notified Mr. Gordon,
22 who instructed her to take down the pitch sheets?
23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, under 801, there is no 25 proof of the admissions of an assistant.
H
ARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3087 Springer-direct/Scott
1 THE COURT: There are also admissions by
2 corporate employees.
3 Overruled.
4
5 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes
6 place in open court.)
7 Q Now, where were you at the time of this arrest?
8 A I was in the office.
9 THE COURT: Before you go any further.
10 This arrest has nothing to do with any of the
11 facts in this case. It is immaterial, irrelevant, and you
12 are not to consider it in any way, except as to what
13 occurred thereafter.
14 The fact that this employee was arrested has
15 nothing to do with this case.
16 Please continue.
17 Q Now, what did you and Liz Sautter do when this arrest
18 occurred?
19 A We were instructed to take down the pitches that were
20 in the salespeople's cubicles.
21 Q Who inst
ructed you to do that?
22 A Liz.
23 Q And where did Ms. Sautter say these instructions came 24 from? 25 A Bruce Gordon.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3088 Springer-direct/Scott
1 Q What was the reason given for taking the pitch sheets
2 down from the salespersons' cubicles?
3 A These were government agents. I don't know exactly
4 why --
5 MR. DUNN: Objection, your Honor, to the
6 question, if she doesn't know why.
7 THE COURT: That's an answer. Why are you
8 objecting to it?
9 Q Where were the agents at the time -- withdrawn.
10 Did you comply with this instruction?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q You walked around the office and took down pitch
13 sheets?
14 A I ran around the office and took down pitch sheets.
15 Q Where were the government agents at the time you were
16 doing thi
s?
17 A They were on their way into the cafeteria. There was
18 a cafeteria in the building, to get Mr. Graham.
19 Mr. Graham would go in there in the morning and sit and
20 read the newspaper.
21 Q Were they in the same room you were in when you were
22 taking the pitch sheets down?
23 A No, they were not. 24 Q Do you recall testifying about the use of fictitious 25 names by salespeople at the company?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3089 Springer-direct/Scott
1 A Yes.
2 Q Under what circumstances were fictitious names used?
3 A For ethnic purposes.
4 Q What do you mean by that?
5 A If you have a Samuel Bernstein, it would be, you
6 know, known that the person was of the Jewish faith. If
7 they were going to be talking to people throughout the
8 country, they didn't know what their -- there could be<
BR> 9 people who didn't particularly care for Jews. If the
10 person's name was Rashid Williams, the person may not
11 particularly care for African American individuals and
12 they could be prejudiced. So they used names not to give
13 away their ethnic background.
14 Q And it was this use of fictitious names pursuant to
15 anyone's instructions?
16 A They were given names. When they joined the company
17 they were given names.
18 Some of the individual's names were okay to use,
19 so they wouldn't be changed.
20 Q Do you recall who gave them these names to use?
21 A The group leaders would.
22 Q Do you recall testifying about sales quotas?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Can you explain what that was? 25 A They had to meet a certain amount of orders written
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3090 Springer-direct/Scott
1 within an eight-week period.
2 Q When you say "they" who are you referring to?
3 A The telemarketers.
4 Q Do you recall the number of sales they were required
5 to make each week?
6 A I wouldn't know that.
7 MS. SCOTT: Thank you. No further questions.
8 Thank you, Ms. Springer.
9 THE COURT: Cross-examination.
10 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, thank you.
11
12 CROSS-EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. TRABULUS:
14 Q Good morning.
15 I am Bruce Gordon's lawyer.
16 You don't particularly like him, do you?
17 A Do I particularly like him? I have nothing against
18 the man, no.
19 Q Nothing at all?
20 You used to work for the man?
21 A Yes.
22 Q He was a very busy man, was he not?
23 A He was busy. 24 Q You testified a couple of days ago before the jury he 25 was pretty busy?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, C
M OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3091 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 A He was busy, yes.
2 Q You asked about a conversation --
3 THE COURT: Mr. Trabulus, you are starting to
4 pick up steam again. And as you are walking forward you
5 get faster. It seems that that is a motivating factor.
6 So, you are talking rapidly. The witness is answering
7 just as rapidly. Between the two of them I don't hear
8 half of what you are saying.
9 Of course, the jurors have no such problem.
10 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, your Honor. I will
11 slow down.
12 THE COURT: But I do.
13 Q Ms. Springer, you worked for four years
14 approximately?
15 A A little over four years.
16 Q You worked hard?
17 A I worked extremely hard.
18 Q You took stuff home, right?
19 A Yes, I did sometimes.
20 Q You worked on weekends?
21 A I worked on weekends, ma
ny, many times.
22 Q As far as you know Mr. Gordon regarded you as a good
23 employee; is that correct? 24 A Yes, I would hope so. 25 Q And it is your testimony that as he supposedly gave
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3092 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 you the names of Lee Iacoca, Colin Powell, Barbara Walters
2 he had to stand right behind you to make sure you would do
3 that; is that correct?
4 A No, he would stand behind me --
5 Q Is that where he normally stood?
6 A Did he usually watch over me? No.
7 Q Is it your testimony that the name of Colin Powell is
8 in any one of those directories?
9 A Is it in the directory?
10 Q Is it in the directory?
11 A I believe it is so.
12 Q I am showing you P and Q.
13 Can you find it?
14 While you are looking for Colin Powell, would you
15 look
for Lee Iacoca. Was he in there, too?
16 A As I explained before when he were instructed to take
17 him out of the database so he is not in the Registry.
18 Q Were you aware of situations where people were
19 offered complimentary memberships, famous people?
20 A Not that I know of.
21 Q If someone was offered a complimentary membership and
22 declined it, is that the reason at one point the name was
23 not given in the -- 24 A Repeat it, slower. 25 THE COURT: Slow down, Mr. Trabulus, please.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3093 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. TRABULUS: Sorry.
2 Q If someone was offered a complimentary membership, a
3 famous person and declined it. Is that the reason why you
4 might have heard a name and the name might not be in the
5 book? Yes or no, madam?
6 A I couldn't answer that.
7 Q Find Colin Powell's name.
8 THE COURT: Excuse me. Before you go further.
9 You are going to be asked a lot of questions
10 calling for a yes or no. If you don't remember, say so.
11 If you can't answer yes or no, say I can't answer the
12 question yes or no, as you just did. You understand?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 THE COURT: Don't make explanations. If it calls
15 for a yes or no, answer yes or no or say you can't answer
16 yes or no.
17 You understand that?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
19 THE COURT: What was the question, Mr. Trabulus.
20 Q Find Colin Powell's name in there.
21 A Okay, I found it.
22 Q Now, do you know for a fact that Colin Powell did not
23 want his name in there? Did you speak to Colin Powell? 24 A I did not personally speak with him, no. 25 Q Is there anything inaccurate about the entry there
HARRY RAPAPORT,
CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3094 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 for him?
2 MR. WHITE: Can we have a reference as to what
3 exhibit and page we are talking about?
4 MR. TRABULUS: P.
5 THE COURT: Is it P for Peter?
6 MR. TRABULUS: P as in Peter, I believe.
7 MR. WHITE: Page?
8 MR. TRABULUS: 657, five year members.
9 Q Anything inaccurate about the entry there?
10 A I would say there is one thing.
11 Q A fact about Colin Powell that is inaccurate?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Was he the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff of
14 the U.S. military?
15 A I would assume, yes.
16 Q Was his office at the Pentagon in Washington, D.C.?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Was his business, U.S. military?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Defense?
21 A Uh-huh, yes.
22 Q Expertise, general management?
23 A That's where -- if someone -- if he wasn't
spoken to, 24 how could you determine his management? 25 Q Do you know personally for a fact as to whether he
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3095 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 was spoken to? Were you listening to all of the
2 salespeople as they were making all of the calls?
3 A No.
4 Q Now, let me ask you this: This book has a section,
5 five year members; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And it had a more -- has a more prestigious section
8 called lifetime members; is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q If someone was going to take Colin Powell, would they
11 not put him into the most prestigious section? Yes or no,
12 madam?
13 A I wouldn't know if they would or would not.
14 Q Did you say that Boris Yeltsin's name was in those
15 books?
16 A What I said --
17 Q Yes or no, did you say that?
18 A No, I didn't say that.
19 Q You said you heard some conversation about someone
20 putting Boris Yeltsin in there?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Is Boris Yeltsin's name in any of those books? Yes
23 or no, madam? 24 A I would not know. 25 Q Would you look to find out.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3096 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 A Sure.
2 THE COURT: Is he in the back? Does anybody
3 know? Has anybody looked?
4 MR. TRABULUS: I don't believe he is in there.
5 THE COURT: You say he is not in there.
6 How about you?
7 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I don't believe he is.
8 THE COURT: You don't believe he is.
9 MR. WHITE: I don't want to be testifying.
10 THE COURT: We don't want to sit here while we go
11 through 400 pages. If he is not in there, let's say he is
12 not in there.
13 MR. WHI
TE: My answer is the same, I don't
14 believe he is in there.
15 THE COURT: You don't know?
16 MR. WHITE: I can't say precisely.
17 THE COURT: Okay, go through the whole book.
18 MR. TRABULUS: She doesn't have to go through the
19 whole book. It is basically alphabetical, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 THE WITNESS: It is not in this Registry.
22 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit P for Peter, is
23 that what that is? 24 MR. TRABULUS: Yes. 25 The next one is Q.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3097 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
2 proceedings.)
3 THE WITNESS: I don't see it in here.
4 Q Were you aware that there was a president of a
5 Russian republic known as Kalmykia put in the book?
6 A We had Russian people in the book, yes.
7 Q Were you aware he was a member?
8 A I am not aware he was a member.
9 Q Were you aware he came to the offices of Sterling?
10 A I was not in Sterling, so, I did not know.
11 Q You testified at some point you yourself used the
12 monitoring system, yes or no?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did someone instruct you to do that or you did it on
15 your own?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Someone instructed you to do it?
18 A Uh-huh.
19 Q For business purposes?
20 A Not for business purposes.
21 Q Now, you testified that Mr. Gordon told you to change
22 assistance vice president to associate; is that correct?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q And he told you to ignore it if the members were 25 unsatisfied; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3098 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did you also testify that
Mr. Gordon did not like the
3 word "owner"?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q And did you also testify he did not like the word
6 "manager" standing alone?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q As far as you know, are there no entries in the books
9 that say owner?
10 A There are.
11 Q Are there over 4,000 entries in the books that say
12 owner?
13 A I have not counted them. I would not know.
14 Q Would it surprise you if there were over 4,000 that
15 say owner?
16 A Yes, it would.
17 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I am putting
18 Defendant's Exhibit S into the CD-ROM drive.
19 Q You testified you were familiar with the CD-ROM, were
20 you not?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Did you ever utilize the CD-ROM yourself?
23 A Did I work it? 24 Q Yes, did you work it? 25 A Yes, I did.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3099 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q You are familiar with the system; is that correct?
2 A Yes, I am.
3 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
4 proceedings.)
5 Q Do you recognize what is coming on the screen as to
6 what you used when you -- you see when you use the CD-ROM
7 system?
8 A It looks like it.
9 Q You recognize the screen as various things you can
10 put into the system?
11 A Yes.
12 Q One of them is titles?
13 A Yes.
14 Q As you understand the system, if you put in the words
15 owner and title, you would get a listing of the people
16 with the word "owner" as part of the title?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Would you please type in the word "owner" where the
19 title is?
20 A Yes.
21 Q You know how to do a search for an owner?
22 A I never used a laptop.
23 Q Well, do you know wh
at button, what window to push or 24 whatever that thing is, the one that has the sigma? Would 25 that do it?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3100 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 A I don't remember. I have not been on one of these
2 for four plus years.
3 Q Well, I am pushing that button.
4 There are numbers -- there is a number appearing
5 next to the words owner, is that a listing of the words
6 with owner in it?
7 A Yes.
8 Q What is the number?
9 A 4,601.
10 Q Now, we are obviously not going to look at all of
11 them. But that's the first page.
12 Do you want to pick any one of those and look in
13 the book, either of these two books?
14 Pick a name?
15 A Aaron.
16 Q The first one, right?
17 A Not in this one.
18 Q Not in the lifetime members there. Check the next
19 p
ortion.
20 MR. WHITE: I didn't hear what we are looking
21 for?
22 MR. TRABULUS: Harriet Aaron.
23 MR. WHITE: A A R O N? 24 THE WITNESS: Not in this one either, not a five 25 year? A three year member.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3101 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Read that entry for Harriet Aaron?
2 A Aaron and Associates, Software and Systems.
3 Q I asked you to read the entry for Aaron, Harriet E;
4 is that correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You read it as Aaron and Associates, Software and
7 Systems; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Was there a word before the word Aaron and Associate
10 Software and Systems?
11 A Owner.
12 Q You didn't see that?
13 A What do you mean?
14 Q You didn't read that to the jury, did you, the word
15 owner?
16 A I can't remember if I did o
r I didn't.
17 Q Leaving this CD-ROM for a minute, but do you notice
18 the top entry on this page?
19 A Rita Reiger.
20 Q Rita Reiger?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What is the entry immediately below Rita Reiger's,
23 what is the title of the person shown there? 24 A Assistant vice president. 25 Q Assistant; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3102 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, assistant.
2 Q Do you want to now do a search for the people who
3 have assistant in their title?
4 What is the number?
5 A 431.
6 Q While we are on this page with Rita Reiger, how many
7 people here are listed as president?
8 A On the whole page you are talking about?
9 Q Right.
10 A On that one page there are 12.
11 Q From your testimony you claim there were changes from
12 assistant vice
president to associate vice president; is
13 that correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q You don't claim there were any changes from assistant
16 or associate vice president to president, do you?
17 A Not that I can recall.
18 Q As far as you can recall anyone listed as president
19 would indeed be a president; is that correct?
20 A I would say they would be, yes.
21 Q Now, I am going to show you in Defendant's Exhibit P,
22 page 981, I will show you an entry for a Jack Heinbaugh on
23 it; is that correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q There is also another entry for an assistant vice
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3103 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 president; is that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And an entry for an owner?
4 A Yep.
5 Q An owner and founder?
6 A Yep.
7 Q Now, is it your testimony that there are no
entries
8 in the book whatsoever that simply say manager?
9 A That is not correct. There are.
10 Q There are, okay, so we can agree on that.
11 It is your testimony there was no public affairs
12 office at Who's Who Worldwide?
13 A There was a public relations department.
14 Q Did you yourself sometimes refer to that as a public
15 affairs office?
16 A Personally, no.
17 Q Do you recall giving testimony at a deposition in a
18 civil case involving Reed Elsevir Company?
19 A Against who?
20 Q Reed Elsevir against Who's Who Worldwide?
21 A Okay.
22 Q Do you recall being asked these questions and giving
23 this answer -- this question and this answer, page 5, and 24 we are talking about -- we are talking about 3500-15-A -- 25 H, hard to read on my document.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3104 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. LEE: What page?
2 MR. TRABULUS: Five.
3 Answer: I am in the public affairs office,
4 administration, I do the editing in the registry, clerical
5 duties, as well as supervising the orders, which the
6 associate directors write, to make sure that the
7 information is accurately put into the Registry, and that
8 our members are made happy because of the way they are
9 going to be listed.
10 Do you recall being asked that question and
11 giving that answer?
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q And was part of your way -- withdrawn.
14 Part of it -- withdrawn.
15 Your testimony then was you were in the public
16 affairs office; is that correct? Yes or no?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And in terms of your responsibility for making
19 members happy, did that include disregarding their
20 instructions to change their titles?
21 A Repeat the question.
22 Q You testified that part of your duties were to make
23 members happy; is that correct? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q And did that include disregarding their instructions
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3105 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 to change their titles when a mistake had been made in a
2 title? Do you understand my question?
3 A Not exactly.
4 Q Well, then I will say it again and make it more
5 simple.
6 You testified that Mr. Gordon told you to
7 disregard it if a customer or a member called up and said,
8 I don't like the way you are listing me, I want to be
9 listed in another way?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q That's what you testified to; is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Is that part of your duties of making customers
14 happy? Yes or no?
15 A No.
16
Q Now, you are prepared to acknowledge today that there
17 were assistant vice presidents who were listed in the
18 book; is that correct?
19 A That is correct.
20 Q Under that title; is that right?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q And before coming here today, and before I showed you
23 that, had you discussed that with either Ms. Scott or 24 Mr. White? 25 A I had informed them of that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3106 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q You informed them of that.
2 When was the first time you informed them that
3 there were indeed assistant vice presidents listed in the
4 book?
5 A When I first started, we didn't have memberships.
6 There was anybody and anyone --
7 MR. TRABULUS: Motion to strike.
8 Q When you say we first started; you are talking
9 about --
10 MR. TRABULUS
: I am sorry, your Honor, I made a
11 motion to strike and I kept on talking.
12 THE COURT: I will not stop you any more. I
13 assume when you say motion to strike and then proceed to
14 the next question, you rescinded your motion. Did you?
15 MR. TRABULUS: No.
16 THE COURT: Your motion is granted. The answer
17 is stricken. The jury is instructed to disregard it.
18 Listen to the questions. If they call for a yes
19 or a no answer you don't -- if you don't know, say so. If
20 you don't remember, say so. Otherwise if you answer yes
21 or no, unless you can't. If you can't, say I can't answer
22 that question yes or no. Please don't make explanations.
23 If any of your answers are incomplete, or 24 Ms. Scott thinks she wants to bring out anything else that 25 you have not been permitted to say, she will have another
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT
REPORTER 3107 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 opportunity to do that.
2 Do you understand our procedure?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes. I didn't know she would be
4 able to ask me the questions that I feel are very
5 important to clarify this whole thing, yes.
6 THE COURT: Then my question is, do you
7 understand the procedure?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand.
9 Q Ms. Springer, the question was: What was the first
10 occasion you had when you told either Ms. Scott or
11 Mr. White that there were indeed assistant vice presidents
12 in the book?
13 A I told them on several occasions.
14 Q Which was the first one?
15 A Probably the first time I met them.
16 Q The very first time you met Mr. White or Ms. Scott?
17 A I believe it was Mr. Biegelman.
18 Q You told that to Mr. Biegelman?
19 A I believe I did, yes.
20 Q And that was before you ever met Mr. White?
21 A Yes, it was, it was over the phone.
22 Q When you met Mr. White after that, did you tell
23 Mr. White that there were assistant vice presidents in the 24 book? 25 A I believe I mentioned it to him, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3108 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And you never told him actually that there were no
2 assistant vice president in the books, did you?
3 A Repeat the question.
4 Q Did you ever tell Mr. White that there were
5 absolutely no assistants whatsoever allowed in the book?
6 A I believe I told him we were not permitted to put
7 them in.
8 Q Did you ever tell Mr. White that there were no
9 assistants whatsoever allowed in the book? Yes or no?
10 A No.
11 Q Yesterday, page 3,041, did you testify as follows.
12 Question: Who made the decisions to ac
cept
13 people with lesser titles?
14 Answer: When I came across certain titles, like
15 if it was an assistant, assistant vice president, it would
16 be changed automatically. He didn't want assistant to
17 appear in the Registry. So I was instructed to change it,
18 cross it off and make it associate.
19 Do you recall giving that testimony just
20 yesterday?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, specifically, do you recall ever saying to
23 Mr. White, or to anybody, that there were no assistants 24 whatsoever allowed in the book, and if there were they 25 would be changed to associate or dropped, depending on the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3109 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 situation? Do you recall ever telling that to Mr. White?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And indeed, were you not -- was there a time when you
4 testified in the grand jury? Do you recall that?
5 A In regards to changing of title?
6 Q Do you recall an occasion when you testified before
7 the grand jury in this case, back in October of 1996?
8 A Yes.
9 Q That was in Brooklyn?
10 A Yes, it was.
11 Q And it was Mr. White who asked you the questions?
12 A Uh-huh.
13 Q Do you recall being asked these questions and giving
14 these answers, beginning at page 9, line 16, and I am
15 reading from 3500 -- I can't read the exhibit number on my
16 copy, the tab is so dark. 15-G, I think. 3500-15-G.
17 Question: Now, did you receive any instructions
18 from Mr. Gordon with respect to what to do if a customer's
19 business had company or, Inc., or L T D after its name?
20 Answer: If it was a president you would always
21 put down corporate management. His expertise would be
22 game hunting, and it would be corporate management as long
23 as there would be -- as there was incorporated, or Corp. 24 after the name, that was what was put. 25 Question: If that person held a position in such
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3110 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 a -- I am sorry, I am reading from the wrong one. Sorry
2 about that. Withdrawn.
3 Page 8, beginning at line 16.
4 Question: Can you tell us, did he give you any
5 idea what the titles of customers should be that you want
6 to accept?
7 Answer: Vice president, president, CEOs, CIOs,
8 any one of standing in a business which changed
9 eventually.
10 Do you recall being asked those questions -- that
11 question and giving that answer?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Yes?
14 A Yes, I do.
15 Q Then continuing:
16 Question: Did he ever instruct you in your
17 review of these order forms to alter the customer's title?
18 Answer: Yes.
19 Question: Can you tell us? Can you give us an
20 example of what sort of changes he asked you to make?
21 Answer: If it was manager, it would go general
22 manager. If it was -- if their expertise was operations,
23 it would become the operations manager. If they were 24 assistant vice president, they would become vice 25 president. There was no assistants whatsoever allowed in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3111 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 the book. And if they were they would change to
2 associate, or dropped, depended on the situation.
3 Do you recall being asked those questions and
4 giving those answers?
5 A Yes, I do.
6 Q And you testified that there were no assistants
7 whatsoever in the book; is that correct?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q And you saw there were 461 listings for assistant; is
10 that correct?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q Was that one lie or 461?
13 A What do you mean, one lie?
14 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
15 THE COURT: Sustained. Strike out the answer.
16 Please rise when you make objections, and do it
17 in a timely fashion, Ms. Scott.
18 MS. SCOTT: I will, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: That one should have alerted you
20 immediately.
21 Q Ms. Springer, when you left Who's Who Worldwide that
22 was after the raid; is that correct?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q And you testified in the grand jury that that raid 25 was the worst day of your life; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3112 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 A One of the worst days, yes.
2 Q One of the worst days?
3 A Today is the other.
4
Q Do you think it is a good day for Mr. Gordon?
5 A I never claimed it was a good day for him, no.
6 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
7 MR. TRABULUS: Withdrawn.
8 THE COURT: Mr. Trabulus is so fast, that I think
9 you better stand up and remain standing. He is so quick
10 that you have to be quick on the draw.
11 I am only kidding.
12 Q Ms. Springer, you say you are a great champion of
13 animals?
14 A That's right.
15 Q And you would never hurt one?
16 A I never would.
17 Q You would never hurt another human being?
18 A Absolutely not.
19 Q You would never lie against another human being in a
20 criminal case, would you?
21 A No, I would not.
22 Q And when you left Who's Who Worldwide, you were owed
23 some vacation pay, were you not? 24 A Yes, I was. 25 Q And you were very upset that you didn't get it,
HARRY RAPA
PORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3113 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 correct?
2 A Absolutely.
3 Q You spoke to Mr. Gordon about it; is that correct?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q And Mr. Gordon told you that because of the
6 bankruptcy there was a difference between the pay that you
7 got when you worked and vacation pay; is that correct?
8 A It is not correct.
9 Q Did he tell you to call an attorney by the name of
10 Neil Ackerman to talk about it as to whether you can get
11 it?
12 A I don't recall that, no.
13 Q Do you recall talking to an attorney by the name of
14 Neil Ackerman?
15 A I did contact them.
16 Q That was at Mr. Gordon's suggestion?
17 A It was at Liz Sautter's discretion.
18 Q Discretion?
19 A I am sorry. She is the person who told me I have to
20 contact him when I sought to get paid for this.
21 Q She worked for Mr. Gordon; is that correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And was it explained to you by the attorney that 24 because of the bankruptcy vacation pay could not be 25 released?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3114 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 A That is true.
2 Q And did you also come to learn that there were other
3 people at Who's Who Worldwide who were also working for
4 nothing after the raid? Yes or no? Did you know that?
5 A I was not aware that they were not getting paid
6 anything, no.
7 Q Did you tell Mr. Gordon that you were so angry at not
8 getting your vacation pay that you would go to
9 Mr. Biegelman unless you got it?
10 A That is not true. In fact, I have a tape recorded
11 conversation I have between Liz and myself when she passed
12 me on to Mr. Gordon. I have that at home.
13 Q Was that a tape recorded conversation -- do you have
14 a bunch of tape recorded conversations at home?
15 A No, just that one. Because she was giving me a very,
16 very hard time.
17 Q Did you bring that tape recorded conversation here?
18 A Today, no.
19 Q Did anyone ask you if you have any tape recorded
20 conversations, anyone from the prosecutions?
21 A No one asked me.
22 MR. TRABULUS: I would like to have that tape
23 recorded conversation, your Honor. It seems to me that 24 would be 3500 material. 25 MR. WHITE: I am not sure that it is.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3115 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 THE COURT: We will discuss that in the absence
2 of the jury.
3 Q Let's see if there are some things we can agree on.
4 You talked to customers?
5 A I spoke to them.
6 Q Would you say you spoke to thousands of customers
7 over the course of time?
8 A Over my employment, yes, thousands.
9 Q Were you involved in giving customers credits?
10 A No, I was not.
11 Q Were you aware that customers were sometimes given
12 credits?
13 A Yes, they were.
14 Q Were you aware -- aware of giving customers refunds?
15 A The same as credits.
16 Q Aware but not involved in it?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Were you aware if a customer's name was misspelled in
19 the directory or some type of mistake, they would be given
20 a free copy of the next year's directory?
21 A They had that procedure, yes.
22 Q You were aware when other mistakes were made as a way
23 to keep a customer happy, they would be given a 24 complimentary gift of sort? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3116 Springer-cross/Trabulus<
BR>
1 Q A leather item?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And there were efforts made to keep customers happy;
4 is that correct?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q Were you aware of a salesman by the name of Joe
7 Parks?
8 THE COURT: Parks? P A R K S?
9 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, your Honor.
10 A Yes.
11 Q Yes?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And did there come a point in time when Mr. Parks
14 left the business of Who's Who Worldwide?
15 A Yes, there was.
16 Q And he took with him a salesman, another salesperson
17 by the name of Kenneth McCarthy; is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And they started up another business; is that
20 correct?
21 A Yes, in Long Beach somewhere.
22 Q It was called Continental Who's Who?
23 A I don't recall the name. 24 Q Do you recall if there were names of customers, or 25 people who were potential members of Who's
Who, who were
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3117 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 diverted to them by a receptionist?
2 A I don't know of that.
3 Q Did you hear anything about that?
4 A I know he was dating the receptionist.
5 Q Did you hear that the receptionist was in cahoots
6 with him in referring calls over to him?
7 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 Q Were you aware that Mr. Gordon himself made
10 complaints to Mr. Biegelman, this was before any raid,
11 concerning Joe Parks' business?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And so, Mr. Gordon himself, the same man whom you say
14 was anxious to take stuff down, off the walls when
15 government agents were there, he himself was going to the
16 postal inspectors and inviting them to become involved in
17 an investigation that related to another business which h
e
18 claimed had stolen his business; is that correct? Yes or
19 no, madam?
20 A Yes.
21 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.
22 THE COURT: I think we will take a break at this
23 time. 24 Members of the jury, please do not discuss the 25 case. Keep an open mind. Please recess yourselves.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3118
1 (Whereupon, at this time the jury left the
2 courtroom.)
3 THE COURT: Have her wait a minute.
4 MR. WHITE: Stay or step out?
5 THE COURT: Step out. But don't leave, we want
6 to talk to you.
7 Does she understand we are not through with her
8 as a witness?
9 MR. WHITE: Yes. She wanted to just go to the
10 lady's room, I think.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 Now, what about this tape recording or recording.
13 MR. WHITE: You are asking me or Mr. T
rabulus?
14 THE COURT: Asking anybody?
15 MR. TRABULUS: I don't know what is on them, your
16 Honor. We have a limited description of them. I think
17 the thing to be would be to call her back and out of the
18 presence of the jury to inquire what is on the tape
19 recording, to see to what extent is on the tape with
20 respect to what was elicited by the government.
21 THE COURT: All right. Let's call her back.
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3119 Springer-cross/Trabulus (Jury Absent.)
1 W E N D I S P R I N G E R ,
2 called as a witness, having been previously
3 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
4 follows:
5
6 THE COURT: Let the record indicate that this
7 phase is in the absence of the jury.
8 THE COURT: Do you want to ask a question about
9 the tape recording?
10 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
11 Q You testified before the jury about a tape recording
12 you had of Liz Sautter. How long is that tape recording
13 in terms of minutes?
14 A I don't know. I really don't know.
15 Q What subject matters are discussed on the tape
16 recording?
17 A She said to me she could not believe that I
18 immediately had left the company the way it was.
19 I said, I treated you as my best friend in the
20 whole entire world. How could you sit here and hide stuff
21 from me? I felt I was -- I loved that company. I hated
22 that it closed. There were a lot of things I found out
23 after they walked in there and shut the place down that 24 hurt me very badly about her, not about Mr. Gordon. About 25 her.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3120 Springer-cross/Trabulus (Jury Absent.)
1 I asked her since I did not have a job, I wanted
2 to have my vacation pay. I was entitled to it. She told
3 me I was not entitled to it.
4 Then later down the road I had spoken with her at
5 the Sterling office, maybe it was even down here in Lake
6 Success. And that's when I was passed on to call up this
7 other individual, I don't remember, Ackerman, whoever it
8 may be. Then I was told that I was one of thousands who
9 were creditors.
10 Q Now, Ms. Springer, you just testified about two
11 different conversations with Liz Sautter?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Which one was tape recorded? The first one or the
14 second one?
15 A The first one.
16 Q And that's the one you talked to her about all the
17 different things about the company that you liked and were
18 devoted to?
19 A I said I was very hurt by her getting upset with me
20 for looking for another job.
21 As soon as they came in that day, we went out for
22 a while, came back in there, got some of our belongings,
23 and the first thing I did was look in Newsday and get 24 interviews for the next day. 25 Q Ms. Springer, in that tape recording, did you discuss
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3121 Springer-cross/Trabulus (Jury Absent.)
1 with her the company and the business, and what you had
2 been doing there and what other people were doing in
3 there?
4 THE COURT: I would think that the tape recording
5 is not necessary?
6 MR. TRABULUS: I would tend to agree.
7 THE WITNESS: It was more of a personal type of
8 thing.
9 THE COURT: All right. We will recess for ten
10 minutes.
11
12 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
13
14 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
15 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
16 jury.
17 You may proceed.
18 MR. JENKS: I have a few questions, your Honor.
19
20 CROSS-EXAMINATIOn
21 BY MR. JENKS:
22 Q Good morning, Ms. Springer.
23 A Good morning. 24 Q Is it fair to say, Ms. Springer, you loved working at 25 Who's Who Worldwide?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3122 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 A I did love working at Who's Who Worldwide.
2 Q Did you consider yourself one of the more valuable
3 employees at Who's Who Worldwide?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And in fact, you started in January, 1991, right,
6 when Who's Who Worldwide was in its initial forming
7 stages; am I correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And it was like a baby? In other words, the company
10 was growing; is that right?
11 A Yes, it was growing.
12 Q And that's
when the company was out of little offices
13 at Seaview Boulevard in Port Washington?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q And you were like one of the original employees; is
16 that right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q You loved working there?
19 A I did say that, yes it is.
20 Q You loved the job you did?
21 A I loved the job I did, yes.
22 Q You believed in the product, right?
23 A I believed in the work I was doing. 24 Q Did you believe in the product? 25 A In the beginning, yes, I did.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3123 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q At no time did you leave your job until the raid took
2 place; am I correct?
3 A No, on several occasions I had started looking, but I
4 did not leave.
5 Q All right.
6 Would it be fair to say that as you sit here
7 today there is a certain amount of a
nger in you directed
8 toward Mr. Gordon?
9 A No. I would not say that at all.
10 Q Are you angry at all about what had occurred at the
11 company, that's you lost your job?
12 A Like I said, I enjoyed my job. I loved my job. I
13 believed in what I did.
14 I miss the people, I miss what I did, yes.
15 There is no anger. If anything, I feel very bad
16 for him. I don't hate him. I don't hate anyone. I don't
17 believe in the word "hate." I don't believe I am in the
18 word "vindictiveness." I believe in honesty. That's why
19 I am here.
20 Q Ms. Springer, you got beat out of two weeks' vacation
21 pay; is that correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And it all boils down to the fact that the reason you 24 are here is because of those two weeks' vacation pay? 25 A That is not correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3
124 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q That is not correct?
2 A That is not correct.
3 Q Am I correct when I say that the day of the raid was
4 the last day you worked at Who's Who Worldwide; is that
5 correct?
6 A Yes, it is.
7 Q Is it also correct to say that when that raid took
8 place you lost your job and a steady pay check; is that
9 correct?
10 A Yes, that's correct.
11 Q And you had no other job to go to then; is that
12 correct?
13 A No. I had a very good set of parents and a very good
14 trust fund as well.
15 Q Look, I am not interested in your parents or in your
16 trust fund. I am only interested in you answering
17 questions.
18 Did you have another job to go to?
19 A No. I had interviews.
20 Q How long did it take you to get a job?
21 A I started, I believe two or three weeks later.
22 Q At another organization?
23 A Yes. 24 Q You are still at that organization? 25 A Oh, no.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3125 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q Another job, right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q When I was sitting here listening, you made it sound
4 like you were the vice president of this company. You
5 weren't the vice president, were you?
6 A No, I was not.
7 Q What you really were was a glorified data entry
8 clerk; is that right?
9 A No, that is not correct.
10 Q No? That is what you did, you took lead cards and
11 information sheets and order forms from salespersons and
12 punched the names into the computers; is that correct?
13 A No, it is not correct. I edited them.
14 Q Edited them?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You made slight changes to the cards and then gave it
17 to people to punch into the computer; is that correct?
18 A I did not make any kind of changes on the cards. I
19 made it on the order form.
20 Q You didn't report directly to Mr. Gordon, did you?
21 A I did, on many occasions.
22 Q I thought Liz Sautter was your immediate supervisor?
23 A Yes, she was. 24 Q Wouldn't you have to report to her first before you 25 reported to Mr. Gordon?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3126 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 A No.
2 Q You had access to Mr. Gordon at any minute you
3 wanted?
4 A Not every minute. He was busy as I explained before.
5 Q You weren't making the day to day decisions of
6 running Who's Who Worldwide, were you?
7 A No, I was not.
8 Q In fact, you were performing a clerical function,
9 clerical duties, correct?
10 A And administrative.
11 Q It was basically a clerical position you were doing?
12 A I don't call it clerical, no. I call it editing.
13 Q You don't call it clerical, you call it editing.
14 You recall testifying -- you testified in a civil
15 deposition back in August of 1993; is that correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q By the way, did you read your deposition testimony
18 before you testified here today?
19 A No, I did not.
20 Q Did the government ever give it to you at any time to
21 read it?
22 A I have a copy of it, yes.
23 Q You know what is in it? 24 A Yes, I do. 25 Q Is it fair to say that you lied at that deposition at
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3127 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 the civil deposition?
2 A Not fair to say that.
3 Q Not fair to say that.
4 You told me you didn't regard you as doing
5 clerical duties?
6 A I didn't say that.
I said I did administrative as
7 well as that. Predominantly I did the editing.
8 Q Did you tell them at the deposition that your primary
9 function was that you worked at the public affairs office
10 and did clerical duties?
11 A I did clerical duties. It was called public
12 affairs. But there was no -- sorry.
13 Q There was an office called public affairs, correct?
14 A It was the administrative office.
15 Q All right.
16 Let me ask you this: You say you spoke to
17 thousands of members during the tenure of your employment,
18 right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Would it be a fair statement to say that most of the
21 members were happy members in the corporation?
22 A I did not get any of the irate customers. They were
23 passed on to a different department. 24 Q Do you know how many irate customers there were? 25 A There was quite a few.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3128 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q How would you know that if you are busy doing
2 clerical duties and the calls were passed to someone
3 else? How would you know they were irate?
4 A The girls would come up to me and explain the
5 situation.
6 Q Were you involved in everybody's business while you
7 were working there?
8 A I was involved in quite a few people's business.
9 Q It seems you were involved in everybody's business?
10 A Not everybody's, no.
11 Q You didn't work in the sales department, did you?
12 A No, I did not.
13 Q You didn't sell memberships to anybody, correct?
14 A No.
15 Q You didn't sit there while the salespeople called
16 people up on the phone, did you?
17 A I was in the sales rooms on many, many occasions when
18 they were pitching, yes.
19 Q You
were in there on occasion; is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q You didn't sit there everyday and listen to every
22 salesperson pitch, did you?
23 A No. 24 Q You didn't revise the pitch sheets, did you? 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3129 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q You don't know if what is contained in the pitch
2 sheet is true or false, do you?
3 A I know one thing that is false in the pitch sheet.
4 Q You know that? You never did any of the pitches; is
5 that right?
6 A I on occasion when Liz was busy --
7 Q You are not answering my questions.
8 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
9 MR. WHITE: Objection. She is answering the
10 questions. Mr. Jenks didn't let her finish.
11 THE COURT: I will not go through the questions,
12 it seems the questions all call for a yes or no answer.
13 MR. JEN
KS: That's correct, your Honor.
14 Q Start where you were interrupted. Start again.
15 Did you make any pitches to customers?
16 A No.
17 Q Did you prepare the pitch sheet?
18 A Once or twice.
19 Q You prepared a pitch sheet as part of your
20 administrative duties?
21 A I typed one for Liz, yes.
22 Q Did you devise the pitch sheet?
23 A What do you mean? 24 Q Did you create it, make it up? 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3130 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q How would you know as to whether the content of the
2 pitch sheets were true or false?
3 A There is one word in there that I believe is false.
4 Q One word you believed in the pitch sheet was false?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Yet you never sold any memberships, right?
7 A No, I never did.
8 Q You never heard these salespeople or any
other
9 salespeople go through an entire pitch with a customer and
10 go and listen to it. Did you?
11 A I heard drips and drabs.
12 Q You heard drips and drabs everywhere in the company
13 because you were everywhere?
14 A Yeah, I was in a lot of places, correct.
15 Q Let me ask you this: This issue with your vacation
16 pay, are you the person who called up like two times a day
17 everyday after the government raided the company looking
18 for your money?
19 A Not everyday, no.
20 Q This doesn't all boil down to the fact that you
21 didn't get your vacation pay, does it?
22 A No, absolutely not.
23 Q You were calling like crazy looking for your money? 24 A I was calling looking for paperwork, my file. 25 Q You were asking for your paperwork. What paperwork
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3131 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 were you asking for?
2 A I had letter of references in there. I had -- I
3 believe just letter of references that I wanted to forward
4 on to my old -- to prospective employment.
5 Q Maybe you should have been asking the government for
6 the paperwork since they had it when they did the raid?
7 A I did ask them as well.
8 Q And did they give it to you?
9 A No.
10 Q Not to this day, correct?
11 A Not to this day.
12 Q But you nevertheless were asking Gordon and Elizabeth
13 Sautter to get it?
14 A I asked them for it and asked them for my vacation
15 pay.
16 Q You were constantly asking for it?
17 A Not constantly.
18 Q How many times did you call up and ask Gordon for
19 your money?
20 A I spoke with him once.
21 Q Just once?
22 A Once.
23 Q How about Liz Sautter? 24 A I spoke wi
th her quite a few times after the raid. 25 Q Did you tell either Liz Sautter or Bruce Gordon that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3132 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 if you don't get the god damn money you are going to
2 Biegelman? Did you tell them that?
3 A That is not true.
4 Q Not true?
5 A Not true.
6 Q Did you go to Biegelman and tell Biegelman that they
7 didn't pay you?
8 A I told him I wanted my vacation pay. Is there a way
9 of getting my payroll -- not the payroll, but the employee
10 record.
11 Q But you did go to Biegelman and tell them that they
12 stiffed you for a couple of weeks vacation?
13 A I told him I wanted my two weeks.
14 Q That was your primary function when you left the job
15 in March of 1995?
16 A No, my primary function was getting another job.
17 Q You loved the company so much?
18 A I loved it up to a certain point.
19 Q You knew people went back and volunteered to work for
20 free there?
21 A I don't know it for a fact.
22 Q You heard that, didn't you?
23 A I was asked, I believe, to come back. 24 Q And despite your parents and your trust funds you 25 didn't go back and volunteer to work there because you got
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3133 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 stiffed out of the two weeks vacation?
2 A It is not true. At that time I didn't know I would
3 be stiffed with the vacation pay. I wanted to move on
4 with my life and get a job where government officials
5 would not come in. I was not going to put myself in that
6 place again.
7 Q Up until then you put yourself there, up until the
8 very day the agents came, right?
9 A I was there on that day, yes.
10 Q All right.
11 Would it be fair to say that it was rare that
12 members were unhappy when they spoke with you.
13 Is that fair to say?
14 A Like I explained to you when I got the phone calls,
15 it was passed on to a group leader and there were other
16 two individuals who handled complaint calls.
17 MR. SCHOER: Objection. Not responsive to the
18 question.
19 THE COURT: Yes. It is not. Strike out the
20 answer as not being responsive.
21 Q Would you say that it was rare that you received
22 calls from unhappy members, you?
23 A Personally? 24 Q Yes. 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3134 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q And would you say that members many times on their
2 own volition upgraded their memberships?
3 A Yes, there were upgrades of memberships.
4 Q In other words, an unhappy -- a happy member would
5 call in and say I have a three-year membership, but I want
6 to be a lifetime member; did that happen?
7 A Occasionally, yes.
8 Q It wasn't as a result of anyone from the corporation
9 calling up, it was as a result of the member being
10 satisfied with the product, right?
11 A They were called by telemarketers to upgrade their
12 memberships.
13 Q Did members call to you and say they wanted an
14 upgrade?
15 A To me personally, no.
16 Q Would it be fair to say that many members over the
17 course of time upgraded their membership to more expensive
18 membership?
19 A Yes, it is.
20 Q Because they liked the product; is that correct?
21 A I would assume so.
22 Q So obviously those people wouldn't feel that the
23 company was defrauding them? 24 A I can't answer for them. 25 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3135 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q Now, you were also in charge, correct, in sending the
2 invoices out, correct?
3 A I did send them out.
4 Q When you sent out the invoices, you tried to make
5 them as accurate as possible; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q In fact, you never tried to misrepresent anything in
8 the invoices; am I right?
9 A I don't understand what you are trying to say.
10 Q I am trying to say when you got the cards with
11 respect to the information from the members, education and
12 so forth, you weren't instructed to change any member's
13 educational criteria?
14 A Absolutely not.
15 Q Or the name of the company they worked for?
16 A No.
17 Q And your testimony was that Gordon wanted no
18 assistants; is that correct?
19 A
Yes.
20 Q And that's what you said?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And that's your position as you stand here today?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Or as you sit here today? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3136 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q That Gordon wanted no assistant, so assistants would
2 have to be taken out?
3 A They would not be included.
4 Q But Mr. Trabulus asked you, and you saw that there
5 were 461 assistants in the book, right?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q Now, when you testified yesterday, you recall being
8 asked this question and giving this answer -- this is on
9 the multi-page transcript, Ms. Scott, at page 3040, line
10 24.
11 Question: Were there any other titles that were
12 not permitted titles?
13 Answer: Assistant.
14 Do you recall being asked that question and
15 giving that answer?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q Right.
18 Question: Who made the decision to accept people
19 who had lesser titles?
20 Answer: When I came across certain titles, like
21 if it was an assistant, assistant vice president, it would
22 be changed automatically. He didn't want, quotes,
23 assistant, to appear in the Registry. So I was instructed 24 to change it, cross it off, and make it "associate." 25 Do you recall being asked that question yesterday
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3137 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 and giving an answer to that question?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Can you tell me how 461 assistants got into the
4 Registry while you were there assisting in the job?
5 A Yes, I would be more than happy to explain.
6 When the company first started, as you explained
7 when I started there, as I testified yesterday, I was not
8 instructed, I was not talked to by Mr. Gordon until I was
9 there seven to eight months. I was instructed at that
10 time by Liz Sautter whatever was on the order forms to put
11 in -- I am glad you mentioned the upgrades, because the
12 people who --
13 Q I am not talking about upgrades now. I know you like
14 to talk. Can you answer the question I asked?
15 A You are asking me what is relevant.
16 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
17 THE COURT: Mr. Jenks, you asked the witness to
18 explain. Please don't interrupt her. You slipped on that
19 one.
20 MR. JENKS: Occasionally, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: You will make it up again.
22 Go ahead and explain.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 24 People were upgraded. And they were upgraded 25 from when the company originally when I first started
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3138 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 there in 1991. At that time there was no memberships.
2 And at that time there were assistants. I was never
3 instructed to change assistants to associates. If I was
4 told to, if there was a report that read out of any
5 database that said, and Mr. Gordon or Liz said to me, make
6 these changes, I would have done them. That is the reason
7 why they are in there. That's the reason they are in
8 there for lifetime memberships. If there was an upgrade I
9 didn't go into any of that information. If you look at an
10 upgrade order form, there was no information except for
11 upgrade and the price. I wouldn't know if there was -- if
12 what their title was. I wouldn't know if there was an
13 assistant. I wouldn't know if it was an associate. And I
14 was not going to change them.
15 Q You sort of seemed to give us the impression
that
16 Gordon wanted to somehow deceive people yesterday and
17 today by changing the title from "assistant "to
18 "associate" vice president. Didn't you testify to that?
19 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
20 THE COURT: What ground?
21 MS. SCOTT: On what Gordon was trying to do.
22 THE COURT: I am sorry, I can't hear you.
23 MS. SCOTT: On what Gordon was trying to do. 24 MR. JENKS: That was the whole basis of their 25 direct, your Honor.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3139 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 THE COURT: If I need your help I will ask you.
2 Overruled.
3 Q Isn't that the impression you tried to create for us,
4 that Gordon was trying to do some sort of deceptive thing
5 by changing people's titles from assistant to associate?
6 A He wanted the Registry to look like upstanding
7 individuals in the business industry. That's what he
8 wanted.
9 Q You would agree that many of the people in that
10 Registry are in fact upstanding members in business
11 industry; is that correct?
12 A Yes, I would agree.
13 Q All right.
14 At the company, there was no double or
15 triple-billing of customers, was there?
16 A There was a split billing.
17 Q In other words, they got the bill initially when they
18 were a member, and then a second statement with respect to
19 the Registry; is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And that was after the Registry was published; is
22 that right?
23 A It was during the process of the Registry being 24 created. 25 Q And that's a mail order rule, right? The reason that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3140 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 there was split billing, not because there was
some kind
2 of scheme to scam somebody; is that right?
3 A I would say a lot of people did not want to pay the
4 full membership price up front, so there was that split
5 billing for that purpose.
6 Q Wasn't there also split billing for a very legitimate
7 reason, when you do mail order you have to bill the
8 product within thirty days?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And you have to split it because you will not publish
11 until October of next year; is that right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q If you charged someone in May, you couldn't charge
14 for the registry unless you were going to deliver the book
15 within thirty days?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And there was nothing wrong or deceptive by engaging
18 in split billing?
19 A That's right.
20 Q That's not the perception we want the jury to have
21 because the bill was split the people were scammed?
2
2 A Not in that aspect, no.
23 Q Because by law in a mail order business you can't 24 collect for a product unless it is shipped within thirty 25 days; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3141 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 A That is correct.
2 Q Now, the issue of nominations you previously
3 testified about, Ms. Springer, and you testified that you
4 saw many nomination ballots, circa 1993; is that correct?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q And before that would it be fair to say that members
7 were often nominated by telephone or by fax machine?
8 A That did happen occasionally, yes.
9 Q That other members would nominate members?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Do you have any idea how many members in those
12 Registries were actually nominated by any members?
13 A I wouldn't know that, no.
14 Q You could not put your fin
ger on any kind of number,
15 right?
16 A No, I couldn't tell you how many.
17 Q Now, you also testified about mailing lists, and I
18 believe Antun Publications; is that right? Is that
19 A N T U N?
20 A I don't remember the spelling, but there was a
21 different company, Fala, F A L A, Fala Direct Marketing.
22 Q The mail order lists, or the mailing lists, let's
23 say, were you involved in obtaining mailing lists? 24 A No, I was not. 25 Q But you have knowledge about mailing lists; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3142 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And is it fair to say before this jury that you could
4 buy a mailing list from one of these mail order places,
5 one of the list brokers, rather, that would give you a
6 list of the let's say all vice president in chemical
7 companies? Would you know that?
8 A I -- I am not sure how that procedure worked. I did
9 not get involved in that aspect of it.
10 Q So, you are not familiar with whether or not an
11 individual running a business would be able to let's say,
12 buy a list of all orthopedic surgeons in the United
13 States?
14 A I am not sure.
15 Q All right.
16 Now, with the issue of nominations, would -- did
17 Mr. Gordon create the nomination ballot?
18 A The nomination letter.
19 Q How about the ballot itself?
20 A He designed it.
21 Q And was it not so that each -- that every nomination
22 ballot when it was created, a nomination ballot was sent
23 with the letter to the potential customer; is that 24 correct? 25 A That was, I believe, '93, or '94. I don't remember
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3143 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 which year it was.
2 Q But everybody got a nomination ballot?
3 A Yes. Everyone did.
4 Q And would it be fair to say that when everyone
5 started to get the nomination ballot, a lot of nominations
6 started to come in by other members; is that right?
7 A There was, you know, there was an amount. I don't
8 know how many of them. It wasn't like the normal cards
9 that came in everyday.
10 Q Did you get calls from people asking if you were
11 Who's Who in America?
12 A They did.
13 Q Did you get them?
14 A Did I get them?
15 I am sure I did when I picked the phone up a
16 couple of times at the receptionist desk.
17 Q What would you tell them?
18 A Absolutely no affiliation.
19 Q You would say to them that this company is not
20 affiliated with Who's Who in America; is that correct?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q And when I say Who's Who in America, would you also
23 get calls from people asking whether or not you were 24 Marquis? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3144 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q And you would say we are not Marquis; is that
2 correct?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q Mr. Gordon never instructed you to deceive anyone
5 saying, yes, we are Who's Who in America, or we are
6 Marquis; is that right?
7 A No, he did not instruct us to do that.
8 Q Is it fair to say that Mr. Gordon felt very proud
9 that he was a competitor for of Marquis Who's Who and was
10 willing to challenge them in business?
11 A Yes, that is true.
12 Q And would it also be fair to say that you didn't try
13 to represent that the company was some other company; as a
14 result?
15 A No, we never represented
that.
16 Q There was nothing ever sent around instructing you as
17 an administration person to represent that to customers
18 when they called you?
19 A Absolutely not, right.
20 Q Now, you had to -- you had a say in the acceptance or
21 rejection of members.
22 A Yes.
23 Q And from time to time you would accept members? 24 A I would go up to Mr. Gordon if there was somebody I 25 felt not suitable, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3145 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q Did Mr. Gordon reject members on occasion?
2 A There was a couple.
3 Q Were there any written guidelines you used to -- you
4 used to determine whether or not someone should be a
5 member?
6 A No. He told me what he was looking for when I had
7 that conversation when I was there for seven months into
8 my employment.
9 Q S
o, there were no written guidelines according to you
10 as to who to include or exclude from the Registry,
11 correct?
12 A Written guidelines, no.
13 Q All right.
14 You recall testifying back at that deposition in
15 1993; is that correct?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q And you recall being asked this question and giving
18 this answer on page 12 of your deposition, line 23: Are
19 there any written guidelines that you have?
20 Answer: Yes.
21 I am going to read the preceding question to that
22 for clarity.
23 A Uh-huh. 24 Q Question: Have you had any formal training from 25 anyone at World Wide Registry as to when -- to know when
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3146 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 to include or exclude?
2 You responded then, answer, I had Mr. Gordon
3 explain to me exactly what the
procedures are and what to
4 look out for in terms of, like I said, if it is not a
5 reputable firm. If it's, you know, pardon my French, a
6 whorehouse, I have to reject it. It is not appropriate,
7 and our members would not appreciate that kind of
8 information being in the Registry. They are not a
9 business leader.
10 The next question. Are there any written
11 guidelines that you have?
12 Answer: Yes.
13 A Yes.
14 Q You just said no two minutes ago. Before I read you
15 this you said no; is that right?
16 A That is correct.
17 Q Here you said the opposite?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q What is it?
20 A On the back of the guidelines is what I followed. It
21 is not written by him.
22 MR. JENKS: Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: But it is the guideline. 24 MR. JENKS: I have nothing further, your Honor. 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3147 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. SCHOER:
3 Q Good morning, Ms. Springer.
4 A Good morning.
5 Q It is still morning?
6 A Unfortunately.
7 Q Unfortunately?
8 A I wish it was evening and I could go home and be rid
9 of this whole thing.
10 Q We will get you out of here.
11 A No offense.
12 Q I don't take any offense.
13 You were in the administration office in the Lake
14 Success office; is that correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q And how many other people worked in administration?
17 A I would say around ten to twelve. Around ten.
18 Q Okay.
19 And the head of the administration department was
20 Liz Sautter; is that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q And Liz Sautter had worked for Mr. Gordon for many
23 years, even before Who's Who Worldwide was in existence; 24 isn't that so? 25 A That is so.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3148 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 Q Would you say that Liz Sautter was Mr. Gordon's
2 right-hand man, right-hand person?
3 A You got it right on the button.
4 Q She knew exactly what everybody was doing in the
5 business; isn't that correct?
6 A Absolutely.
7 Q Now, you said there were about ten people in
8 administration. Did all those people work in one office?
9 A Yes, we did.
10 Q And that office had file cabinets in it?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And those file cabinets were kept locked; right?
13 A Oh, yeah.
14 Q And people in the sales department couldn't go into
15 those file cabinets, right?
16 A No.
17 Q And that was an absolute rule, wasn't it?
18 A Oh, yes.
19 Q Okay.
20 In fact, people in the sales departments were --
21 in the sales department, were discouraged from even coming
22 into the administration office. Isn't that so?
23 A Were not permitted. 24 Q Were not permitted. You couldn't cross that line 25 from sales into administration?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3149 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A The black door they called it, yes.
2 Q Okay.
3 Now, that was done because Mr. Gordon and
4 Ms. Sautter didn't want people to know certain things; is
5 that right?
6 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
7 THE COURT: Overruled.
8 A Not some things, they didn't want them to know
9 anything.
10 Q They didn't want them to know anything but the pitch,
11 right?
12 A That's right.
13 Q And they didn't want them to know what you were
14 doing; is
that right?
15 A That is correct.
16 Q Now, they thought -- withdrawn.
17 They would write out orders, right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And either you or someone else from administration
20 every half an hour would come to their bins and pick up
21 those orders and take those through the black door, across
22 the line into administration, right?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. 25 And it was your major responsibility to review
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3150 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 those orders; isn't that right, and make sure that the
2 people were qualified?
3 A It is correct.
4 Q You said that yesterday, you said that the first day
5 that you testified? That was your number one
6 responsibility?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q And the salespeople knew that that was your number
9 one responsibility; isn't that so?
10 A Yes, they did.
11 Q Okay.
12 And they believed, as far as you knew, that you
13 were checking every one of those orders to make sure that
14 those people were qualified, right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q They didn't know that Mr. Gordon might have told you
17 to accept people who weren't qualified, right?
18 A They would not know that.
19 Q They didn't know anything about you marking on the
20 cards, as per Bruce Gordon, or BG, right?
21 A They did not know that.
22 Q Okay.
23 So, they thought that there was a selection -- 24 another layer of review, and that was you, right? 25 A I would not go as far as that, no.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3151 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 Q Okay.
2 A That I would not.
3 Q But it was your major responsibility to do that, to
4 make sure that people that were qualified -- that people
5 that were put -- accepted for membership were qualified;
6 is that right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, you didn't have any financial interest in this
9 business, right?
10 A Oh, no.
11 Q And you didn't have any ownership interest in this
12 business, right?
13 A No.
14 Q And so, you had no personal reason to put people in
15 the book who weren't qualified, did you, a personal
16 reason? Did you get any personal gain by putting people
17 in the book who weren't qualified?
18 A No.
19 Q Okay.
20 You didn't put people in the book who weren't
21 qualified to deceive other people, did you?
22 A Only the ones I mentioned before. And it was put,
23 although it wasn't deception. And I am talking about the 24 people such as Colin Powell. 25 Q Maybe I didn't make my question clear enough.<
BR>
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3152 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 The people you put in the book that you believed
2 weren't qualified, but that you were told to put in the
3 book as being qualified, you didn't do that with any
4 intent to deceive other people, did you?
5 A Personally, no.
6 Q Okay.
7 And none of the people that were put in the book,
8 whether you thought they were qualified or unqualified,
9 were put in the book to deceive anyone, were they?
10 A From me personally?
11 Q Did you try to deceive anyone?
12 A No.
13 Q You thought you were working a legitimate business;
14 is that right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You were proud of that business?
17 A I was proud of my position, yes.
18 Q You had risen in the ranks from receptionist to the
19 what was your title --
20 A Editorial assistant.
21 Q Editorial assistant?
22 A Yes.
23 Q You were proud of that job? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Your first job?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3153 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A My first real job.
2 Q In the business as far as you understood was shipping
3 books to people; is that right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And the business had this Tribute Magazine that went
6 out, right?
7 A That is true.
8 Q A very nice magazine, right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Something to be proud of?
11 A Yes.
12 Q A product?
13 A Yes.
14 Q They shipped the plaques?
15 A They did ship the wall plaques.
16 Q A nice plaque as far as you understood, right?
17 A It was a nice plaque.
18 Q A nice product, right?
19 A It was okay.
20 Q You didn't think there was anything deceptive about
21 the business when you were working there, right?
22 A I had doubts.
23 Q Did you continue to work there? 24 A Yes, I did. 25 Q Did you think you were doing anything illegal?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3154 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A Absolutely not.
2 Q Because you didn't think you were deceiving anyone,
3 right?
4 A I was not deceiving anyone.
5 Q You didn't have the intentions to deceive anyone by
6 working at Who's Who Worldwide, did you?
7 A No.
8 Q You didn't have the intention to deceive anyone by
9 working with Sterling, whatever you were doing with
10 Sterling as well?
11 A No, I had no -- right.
12 Q Now, the day the agents came, March 30th, Liz
13 Sautter, Mr. Gordon's right-hand man, right-hand person,
14 the person knowing everything that was going on, she
15 wasn't arrested was she?
16 A She was taken out of the building. I thought she was
17 arrested, she was not.
18 Q She was not?
19 A Right.
20 Q And you weren't arrested were you?
21 A Nope.
22 Q Because you didn't do anything wrong, did you?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q When you first started working at Port Washington, is 25 that the first time you met Tara?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3155 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes, it is.
2 Q You knew her to be Tara Green?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Did you know her true name was Tara Garboski?
5 A I know that, yes.
6 Q And did you know it at the time?
7 A Not at the time.
8 Q Did there come a time while you were working there
9 that you learned that?
10 A Sure.
11 Q Did you find that to be deceptive in any way that she
1
2 was using the name Tara Green instead of Tara Garboski
13 when she was dealing with the public?
14 A I didn't understand why until it was explained.
15 Q Did you feel that it was deceptive?
16 A They didn't change my name. It had nothing to do
17 with me. I can't say if I did or didn't. I thought it
18 was strange, I will put it that way. I thought it was
19 strange.
20 Q And when you first met Tara, was she a group leader
21 or was she just a salesperson?
22 A She was a salesperson.
23 Q And she was a salesperson while you were in Port 24 Washington, right? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3156 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 Q And at that time when you were in Port Washington,
2 was the pitch basically as far as you know, the same from
3 the time you first started working until March 30th, 19 --
4 A I don't know that. I know it was changed a lot of
5 times but I don't know --
6 Q Just words, though, not the concept?
7 A I don't know.
8 Q Okay.
9 Do you know who created the script, the pitch?
10 A Mr. Gordon.
11 Q Mr. Gordon created it.
12 And there were solicitation letters; is that
13 right?
14 A Yes, there were.
15 Q Did you ever see the solicitation letters?
16 A Yes, I did.
17 Q And in fact, those solicitation letters were sent
18 from the administration office, right?
19 A Not correct.
20 Q What office sent the solicitation letters?
21 A It was one of the mailings -- I don't know who --
22 Q Was -- I didn't mean to interrupt you.
23 A I don't know if it was Antun's Place. I know there 24 was a lot of postage required to go out to get the 25 mailings. I don't know from who, from when, any of that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3157 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 Q But in the beginning at least, the direction to
2 Antun's, or whatever mailing house was doing it, came from
3 Liz Sautter and through administration; isn't that
4 correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And so, it was administration's responsibility, your
7 branch of the business, their responsibility to send out
8 those solicitation letters, or to direct someone to?
9 A I had nothing to do with that aspect. It was between
10 her and Mr. Gordon.
11 Q How about mail that came in? Did you have anything
12 to do with the mail that came?
13 A Helped open the mail.
14 Q And the invoices that were mailed out, you reviewed
15 those invoices, right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And were those sent out by administration?
18 A Yes.
19 Q So other people in the office, in your
office were
20 the people who actually mailed the invoices to members; is
21 that right?
22 A That is correct.
23 Q And all the mail that was -- that came in to Who's 24 Who Worldwide came in to the administration office; isn't 25 that so?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3158 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A There or the conference room.
2 Q Okay.
3 In fact, when you talked about sorting the cards,
4 it was done in the conference room; is that right?
5 A It was done either in the conference room, or it was
6 done in the administrative room.
7 Q When it was done in the conference room, the door was
8 locked, right?
9 A You better believe it.
10 Q The salespeople were not allowed in the conference
11 room while you were sorting cards or whoever was doing the
12 sorting; is that right?
13 A That is correct.
14 Q You talked about the sorting of the cards -- well,
15 let me ask you a question before that.
16 Those cards when they were mailed from the
17 mailing house, did they have stamps on them?
18 A There was postage that was -- I don't know.
19 Q Maybe I am being unclear.
20 A Okay.
21 Q The cards that came back from potential members, did
22 those potential members have to put a stamp on that card?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And they had to voluntarily fill out the card and put 25 a stamp on it, their own 32 cents, or whatever it was at
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3159 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 that time, and then mail it back; is that right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And Who's Who Worldwide didn't pre-stamp those cards?
4 A No, they did not.
5 Q Now, when you sorted the cards did you look at them?
6 A Occasionally. There wasn't enough time to look at
7 it. If something caught my eye I looked at it.
8 Q If there was a card in crayon, would it catch your
9 eye?
10 A I am sure it would have.
11 Q If you saw a card in crayon, would you have taken it
12 out?
13 A I personally would have, yes.
14 Q And were there other cards where there might be
15 something that caught your eye that you would have taken
16 out?
17 A Yes.
18 Q For example, what kind of things would you have taken
19 out if it had caught your eye?
20 A The nomination letter. A lot of people attached
21 their letter to that card.
22 Q But other than that, the cards itself, was there
23 anything on the card that would have caused you to take 24 that card out and not put it in the bundles? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3160 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 Q Like what?
2 A If the person was deceased, if it said that this is a
3 scam, take me off your mailing list. There were a lot of
4 cards that came in with indications like that. A lot of
5 people were deceased.
6 Q You took those cards out; is that right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q You didn't but them in the bundles, right?
9 A Oh, no.
10 Q And you did some sort of screening at that point,
11 right, when you looked through the cards?
12 A It was for that purpose. It would be in big letters,
13 deceased, you can't help but see it.
14 Q If someone wrote in little letters deceased, you
15 would not see the rest of the card, you would pull that
16 card out as well; is that right?
17 A Yes. Sure.
18 Q You put the cards in rubberbands you said?
19 A They were rubberbanded.
20 Q Were there any particular numbers
of cards in each
21 rubberband? Was that some sort of process?
22 A There was sometimes 20, there was sometimes 25.
23 There was sometimes more. 24 Q And who made that determination as to how many to put 25 in a rubberbanded bundle?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3161 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A Mr. Gordon.
2 Q And so, Mr. Gordon, is it fair to say was a very
3 hands-on manager of this business, the CEO; is that right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And he made almost all the decisions, right?
6 A It was his company. It was his decisions.
7 Q He is making decisions down to the minute detail as