6 James Lennon, L E N N O N, alternate juror number 3, that
7 his father died over the weekend. The funeral is today.
8 He very much would like to remain in the case, he says.
9 And offers the suggestion that when he comes in tomorrow
10 he reads the transcripts. He will read every word, he
11 says, and be able to continue on the trial. It is an
12 original idea.
13 I do not intend to lose an entire day waiting for
14 alternate juror number three. However, he has an original
15 idea that he can catch up by reading the transcript.
16 Of course, there is some problem with that. The
17 problem is he is not going to be able to hear or see the
18 witnesses, which is a big problem for me.
19 MR. TRABULUS: Also, your Honor, is there a
20 version of the transcript available with the sidebars
21 eliminated?
22 THE COURT: That's true. I think we will have to
23 excuse alternate juror number three. Any objection to 24 that? 25 MR. TRABULUS: No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4312
1 THE COURT: Is the jury here?
2 THE CLERK: I will check.
3 THE COURT: I am going to have the courtroom
4 deputy clerk tell the jurors that this alternate juror is
5 excused because he has a death in the family, namely, his
6 father died. Any objection to that?
7 MR. TRABULUS: No.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 The reason I am having her tell them that because
10 they will ask where he is, why isn't he here?
11 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, on a scheduling issue
12 with respect to tomorrow morning for one second.
13 Mr. Osman has a doctor's appointment for tomorrow
14 morning at eight a.m. He believes he can be here by 9:30
15 without difficulty. He cancelled the appointment on three
16 occasions, he had a CAT scan and MRI done of his stomach.
17 He has been ill for a while. The doctor felt it important
18 to visit with him tomorrow morning. Can we possibly start
19 at ten a.m. to assure that Mr. Osman is here on time?
20 THE COURT: Yes.
21 MR. NELSON: Thank you, your Hono
r.
22 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
23 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the 24 courtroom.) 25 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4313
1 Please be seated.
2 Thank you again for your punctuality, patience
3 and continued persistent dedication.
4 I was trying to get another P in there, but
5 couldn't do it.
6 As you know we have lost one of our alternate
7 jurors due to the death of his father over the weekend.
8 Let's proceed.
9 MS. SCOTT: The government calls Ms. Pincham to
10 the stand.
11 THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand.
12
13 W I L M A P I N C H A M ,
14 called as a witness, having been first
15 duly sworn, was examined and testified
16 as follows:
17
18 THE CLERK: Please state your name and spell y
our
19 last name slowly for the record.
20 THE WITNESS: Wilma Pincham, P I N C H A M.
21
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MS. SCOTT: 24 Q Good morning, Ms. Pincham. 25 A Good morning.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4314 Pincham-direct/Scott
1 Q Can you tell us where you live?
2 A I live in Yelm, Y E L M, Washington.
3 THE COURT: The State of Washington?
4 THE WITNESS: The State of Washington, sir.
5 Q What did you do for a living?
6 A I am a counselor, and my husband and I own and
7 operate a child placing agency in the State of Washington.
8 Q Can you tell us what your job involves?
9 A My husband and I recruit, and I do the training of
10 foster parents to train them to be therapeutic foster
11 parents. And then we take the state's children that are
12 severely, severely disturbed. We
place those children in
13 the foster homes and we do all the counselling and
14 monitoring to help those children succeed.
15 Q Can you tell us how this organization began?
16 A When I was 19 I adopted two little boys, one three,
17 and one almost five. I was pregnant with my first child.
18 Six months later I had my first baby, 14 months later I
19 had my second baby, and 12 months later I had my third.
20 By the time I was 22 I had five children. From that point
21 on we took in other people's children, and then we became
22 legal foster parents, and then decided that there must be
23 other people who cared as much as we did about children, 24 so we began to recruit those to help us with the kids. 25 Q How long has your organization been in existence?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4315 Pincham-direct/Scott
1 A The PACT Agency itself.
2 THE COURT: The what agency?
3 THE WITNESS: The PACT, P A C T, acronym for
4 Parent and Child Togetherness, agency was formed in 1988.
5 Q Have you ever heard of a company called Who's Who
6 Worldwide?
7 A Yes, ma'am, I had.
8 Q Did you eventually purchase a membership of that
9 company?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And approximately when were you first contacted?
12 A In late November, 1992 I received a letter saying
13 that I had been nominated to become a member of Who's Who
14 Worldwide and there was a card there that I filled out and
15 sent back in.
16 Q I am showing you Government's Exhibit 3-D, as in
17 Doctor, for identification.
18 (Handed to the witness.)
19 Do you recognize that?
20 A Yes, I do, the card I filled in and sent back. It is
21 my handwriting.
22 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 3-D, as
23 in Doctor? 24 THE COURT: Any objection? 25 MR. TRABULUS: No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4316 Pincham-direct/Scott
1 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 3-D, for Dog, in
2 evidence.
3 (Government's Exhibit 3-D received in evidence.)
4 Q Can you take a look at the back of the post cards and
5 tell us what the postmark says?
6 A November 27th, 1992, Olympia, Washington.
7 Q If you take a look at the front of the card, in the
8 lower right-hand corner there is a code printed at the
9 bottom.
10 A It says G A group dash L.
11 MS. SCOTT: Thank you.
12 May I publish Government's Exhibit 3-D?
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published
15 to the jury.)
16 Q Now, Ms. Pincham, what happened after you sent back
17 that postcard?
18 A In early December of
the same year I got a telephone
19 call from a lady identifying herself as a member of the
20 company.
21 Q And what happened in that conversation?
22 A She told me she had received the card back and she
23 was calling to conduct an interview. I asked her how 24 originally she had gotten my name. She said I had been 25 nominated by someone who considered me outstanding in my
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4317 Pincham-direct/Scott
1 profession or field.
2 I asked her who it was.
3 She said she was not allowed to tell me. Several
4 times I asked her how did they get my nomination.
5 She told me either someone who held me in the
6 very highest esteem nominated me, or else a member of the
7 organization itself had nominated me.
8 She told me that several benefits were part of
9 the membership, if I purchased a
membership. And that I
10 would receive a free trip back to New York. I would
11 receive a magazine. I would receive free seminars and
12 work shops, and I would receive a plaque, and I would also
13 receive my name in the Who's Who global business leaders
14 in a book that they published.
15 I asked her how did people -- the first people
16 get started? And she didn't answer that. She did tell me
17 that most of the people who were nominated were rejected.
18 She did tell me it was a very prestigious award. Only the
19 cream of the crop got to be members.
20 I purchased a membership.
21 Q What, if anything, else did she say about how the
22 company got its members?
23 A Again, strictly by someone holding in you the highest 24 esteem and nominating you, or by a member of the 25 organization nominating you.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT
REPORTER 4318 Pincham-direct/Scott
1 Q Of the things she told you, what was the most
2 important thing that led to your purchase?
3 A The fact that someone thought enough about me to
4 nominate me for something I considered to be such an
5 honor.
6 Q What did you expect to do with such a membership?
7 A Part of having the name in the book, would have been
8 that there would be other people running the same type of
9 organization and agency that we have across the United
10 States to brain storm, get ideas. The other was just so
11 that the plaque could be on the wall, to let the person
12 who nominated me to see that, yes, I won.
13 Q Now, how, if at all, did your belief that you and the
14 other members had been nominated relate to your perception
15 of the value of this membership?
16 A Almost all of it for me was there, other than, like I
17 said, the free work shops. The same time that was
18 happening I was nominated for other awards in the state
19 and locality in which I reside. And because of what I do,
20 I like to know that I am not letting people down, so that
21 if they cared enough to nominate me for it, then I cared
22 enough for them to follow through.
23 Q So, if your name had been obtained not by nomination, 24 but by a mailing list, would that have affected your 25 decision to make a purchase?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4319 Pincham-direct/Scott
1 A I wouldn't have purchased.
2 Q And why is that?
3 A Because mailing lists can be from purchasing a pair
4 of nylons to going down a telephone list in a telephone
5 book. It has nothing to do with someone caring anything
6 about you.
7 Q How much did you pay for your membership?
8 A $290, plus seven dollars shipping.
9 Q How did you pay for it?
10 A With my credit card.
11 Q I am showing you Exhibit 3-B, do you recognize that?
12 A Yes, a copy of the invoice I received showing where
13 the $297 had been charged to my credit card.
14 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 3-B.
15 THE COURT: Any objection?
16 MR. TRABULUS: No.
17 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 3-B, for Boy, in
18 evidence.
19 (Government's Exhibit 3-B received in evidence.)
20 Q What is the date on that invoice?
21 A 12/17/92.
22 Q And you say that that invoice reflects your purchase
23 of the membership from Who's Who Worldwide? 24 A Yes, ma'am. 25 Q I am also showing you Government's Exhibit 3-C, which
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4320 Pincham-direct/Scott
1 is in evidence.
2 (Handed
to the witness.)
3 Q Now, does that document reflect personal information
4 about you?
5 A Yes, it does.
6 Q What do you see there relating to yourself?
7 A I see -- it looks like the information I was asked on
8 the telephone, as my name, and title, current
9 organization, my address, business phone number, and then
10 some personal information about myself.
11 Q If you look at the upper right-hand corner, do you
12 see a name appearing there?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q Can you read the name aloud to us?
15 A I believe it says Annette Colby or Holby. I can't
16 make out for sure the first letter of the name.
17 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, may I publish 3-C and
18 3-B?
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published
21 to the jury.)
22 Q Now, did you receive a plaque, Ms. Pincham?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Did you
receive a directory? 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4321 Pincham-direct/Scott
1 Q Can you tell us the circumstances of the non-receipt
2 of the directory?
3 A When the lady first had spoken to me she told me I
4 would receive a free directory. Since it was already the
5 early part of December of '92, it was too late for my name
6 to go into that year's directory, because they have to be
7 turned in earlier in the year in order to print it on
8 time, so I would receive my free directory in December of
9 '93.
10 Q And what happened in 1993 relative to your directory?
11 A I received another bill for $97 from Who's Who.
12 Q What did you do when you received this bill?
13 A I wrote a letter across the bottom of it saying that
14 they had told me in the beginning that the directory was
15 free. I had al
ready paid for the entire amount, and I was
16 not sending them any more money. I wanted my directory.
17 Q Now, did you have an opportunity to look at the
18 invoice, Government's Exhibit 3-B, before you testified?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q And were you asked to read the blue box at the bottom
21 of that invoice, the warning in the blue box?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And did that warning say in substance that you would 24 be billed separately for the registry later on? 25 A Yes, it did. But I did not receive that over the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4322 Pincham-direct/Scott
1 telephone. I did not receive that until after my credit
2 card had already been charged. And that was not said over
3 the telephone. That did not appear until it came in on my
4 invoice and was not even part of the original deal.
5 Q Now, did you receive a
ny of the other items original
6 promised?
7 A No.
8 Q Were you contacted again?
9 A No, not after I wrote the letter back.
10 Q Were you ever contacted by anybody claiming to be a
11 member of Who's Who Worldwide who wished to network with
12 you?
13 A No, ma'am.
14 Q Finally going back to what you said earlier, you
15 mentioned you were told about a free trip to New York.
16 A Yes.
17 Q Can you explain in a little more detail what you were
18 told about that trip?
19 A That it would be a special dinner and we would be
20 brought back free to it and honored at the dinner. The
21 new members would be presented and honored at the dinner.
22 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, Ms. Pincham.
23 I have no further questions. 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4323 Pincham-cross/Trabulus
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. TRABULUS:
3 Q Good morning, Ms. Pincham. My name is Norman
4 Trabulus and I represent the person seated next to me, who
5 is Bruce Gordon.
6 A Good morning.
7 Q I gather you have received awards and recognition for
8 the work you have done?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And I gather you have helped a lot of people in your
11 work?
12 A I hope so, sir.
13 Q And I think we will agree that you are someone who is
14 deserving of recognition for what you have accomplished.
15 A Thank you, sir.
16 Q Now, I think your testimony here was that your first
17 contact was by receiving a letter and a card?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And do you recall that you had at one point received
20 a questionnaire from the United States Postal Service?
21 A After that, yes.
22 Q Certainly, after that. And you filled it out?
23
A Yes, sir. 24 Q And do you recall that you were asked a question in 25 that concerning how you were contacted?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4324 Pincham-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And do you recall in response to that, writing in
3 telephone call originally, and then through the mail?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And --
6 A Yes, sir, I wrote that.
7 Q And at the time you wrote that, was that your
8 recollection as to how you were first contacted?
9 A Yes, sir, because I was doing it actually in a
10 hurry. I had no idea what was happening, other than
11 simply answering a questionnaire.
12 Q But at the point in time you answered the
13 questionnaire, that's the way you remembered it?
14 A Yes, it was.
15 Q After that did you have occasion to discuss that with
16 anyone from the -- any postal i
nspector over the telephone
17 or in person?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And did you have occasion to discuss that with either
20 Ms. Scott, or Mr. White, who is the gentleman sitting to
21 her right?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And when was the most recent time you first discussed 24 that subject, as to whether you were contacted by 25 telephone or by mail with them?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4325 Pincham-cross/Trabulus
1 A The first time that Mr. Al, I am not sure I am
2 pronouncing his name right, Pagano.
3 Q When was the most recent time you discussed that?
4 A That was the most recent time I discussed that, sir.
5 Q All right.
6 Has any one of them told you that from a mailing
7 list, there is no way that Who's Who Worldwide would have
8 had access to your telephone number?
9 A No, sir.
1
0 Q Has anybody from them told you that if in fact you
11 had been telephoned first before receiving anything by
12 mail, it would indicate that your name had been submitted
13 to Who's Who Worldwide by another member?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q And when was the first time -- withdrawn.
16 It was about a year after you first received the
17 original invoice that you received a second invoice for
18 the directory; is that correct?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And when you received the second invoice for the
21 directory, was that the first occasion that you had to
22 think back about whether or not in that initial telephone
23 call you had been told anything about a charge for the 24 second directory -- excuse me, a charge once the directory 25 was delivered?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4326 Pincham-cross/Trabulus
1 A I don
't believe I understood the question, sir.
2 Q Sure.
3 When you received the first invoice, you didn't
4 read the material at the bottom in blue that talked about
5 being billed later on for the directory; is that correct?
6 A No, sir. In fact, I still don't remember saying that
7 billed for the directory. I remember it saying that it
8 was a split payment. In fact, the card I sent back in
9 expressly says there will be no charge to have your name
10 in the directory.
11 Q I in fact misspoke.
12 When you received the invoice, you didn't read
13 the blue box which indicated there would be an additional
14 payment down the once the directory was delivered?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q And between the time you received that invoice, the
17 first invoice, and the time you received the second
18 invoice, which indicated that the directory was going to
19 be forthco
ming, you had no reason during that time to
20 think about whether or not in your first telephone call
21 you were told that there was going to be a second payment
22 down the road; is that correct?
23 A I am lost, sir. 24 Q Okay. 25 A I am sorry.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4327 Pincham-cross/Trabulus
1 Q I will rephrase the question.
2 After you got the first invoice, you had nothing
3 in your mind about their being a second payment, right?
4 A No, sir, because the original price I had been quoted
5 was the $290.
6 Q And then later on, about a year later, you received
7 it?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And between the time you received the first invoice
10 and the time you received the second invoice, you didn't
11 think about what you heard in that telephone conversation
12 concerning billing, di
d you? You had no reason to?
13 A No, sir, because I thought the $290 was the total
14 amount.
15 Q After you received the second bill, that's the first
16 time you had to think back to what you were told in the
17 initial conversation; is that correct, sir?
18 A Not on everything. Concerning the billing, yes. Not
19 on anything I was promised. Almost a year promised. I
20 received nothing. I received no call from New York --
21 Q Did you receive a plaque?
22 A Yes.
23 Q What did you do with the plaque when you received it? 24 A Hung it on the wall. 25 Q Where?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4328 Pincham-cross/Trabulus
1 A In my office.
2 Q Is it still there?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Have you ever received a magazine from Who's Who
5 Worldwide?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q I think you indicate
d that one of your purposes in
8 becoming a member was the possibility of brain storming
9 with other people who were in fields similar to your own;
10 is that right?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And, of course, not having received the directory,
13 you never had occasion to find out as to whether there
14 were other people with whom you might have brain stormed;
15 is that correct?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Let me ask you this: Let me ask you if the following
18 people were the kind you wanted to be brain stormed with
19 and in contact in your kind of work. Lydia
20 S H E L T O N, S H E L T O N, Shelton, Lydia, L Y D I A,
21 who is in the non-profit foster care business, and whose
22 major product and service was referrals for foster care,
23 is that someone you might have wanted to talk to? 24 A Possibly. 25 Q How about Pamela Norris Woods, the director and
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4329 Pincham-cross/Trabulus
1 founder of United Care, Inc., which specialized for
2 treatment of abused and abandoned children, located in Los
3 Angeles?
4 A Possibly.
5 Q She lists her expertise as counselling and social
6 work, is that someone?
7 A Possibly.
8 Q How about Loretta C. A M A R O, Amaro, vice president
9 of National Counselling and Placement Organization, whose
10 major product is training programs, had an expertise and
11 professional counselling, Loretta C. Amaro?
12 A I doubt that, sir.
13 Q That's sufficiently different from what you are
14 doing?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q How about Carolyn Carney, the director of the Freedom
17 Independent Living for the Blind who trains the blind and
18 mentally challenged and whose expertise is counselling to
19 maximize the potential for the physically and mentally
20 challenged, would that be somebody?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q How about Louie, L O U I E, Barrington, Jr., the
23 Florida regional director of the Eckerd, E C K E R D 24 Family Youth Alternatives, Inc. in Florida, business child 25 care in the expertise and therapeutic counselling?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4330 Pincham-cross/Trabulus
1 A I don't know, sir.
2 Q It is possible? Is that someone who you might
3 conceivably want to communicate with?
4 A Some of these might have been people I might have
5 been interested in meeting in one of the seminars, work
6 shops to see if we had anything in common. However, there
7 were no work shops.
8 Q And Stan V. Dale, the president and CEO of the Human
9 Awareness Institute in San Carlos, California, type of
10
business education --
11 THE COURT: You have to slow down, Mr. Trabulus.
12 You are rattling the things off. You are not stopping to
13 spell them. The reporter certainly doesn't know how to
14 spell these names. You are just proceeding to rattle them
15 off at a high speed so it makes it very difficult -- I
16 can't follow you myself to easily. You will have to slow
17 down, Mr. Trabulus.
18 MR. TRABULUS: Stan V. Dale, D A L E, the
19 president and CEO of the Human Awareness Institute,
20 business, education; producer of seminars, work shops,
21 books, publishing, worldwide marketing area, and an
22 expertise in education, counselling and publishing.
23 Would that have been someone you might have 24 wanted to have some communications with? 25 A I don't think so, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4331 Pincham-cross/Trab
ulus
1 Q Because, again, it is your area -- your area is too
2 specialized, has a specialty not involved in that?
3 A We work with children six through 18, sir, who are
4 severely, severely traumatized, abused children. It takes
5 a lot of patience and expertise with their particular
6 problems. We do not work with the blind.
7 Q Do you work with mentally challenged people?
8 A Yes, sir, we do.
9 Q And how about would Cheryl Chapman, C H A P M A N,
10 the executive director of the Baptist Home for Children
11 and Families, which apparently runs residential group
12 homes, is that someone with whom you might have wished to
13 network?
14 A No, sir. We try to keep our children out of group
15 homes and mental institutions and jails. We try to keep
16 them in functioning stable family units.
17 Q Would you nevertheless have occasion to speak to
18
someone in a residential group home concerning possible
19 placement from a group home into a family?
20 A Yes. Our children come to us from the State of
21 Washington.
22 Q And would you agree that the names I have listed,
23 that I have given to you, and the descriptions I have 24 given to you as members of Who's Who Worldwide, show in 25 any event, that there is a potential of other members with
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4332 Pincham-cross/Trabulus
1 whom you would have had something in common and might have
2 gleaned some benefit through communication?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 MR. TRABULUS: I have no further questions.
5 THE COURT: Anybody else?
6 MR. GEDULDIG: I do, Judge.
7
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. GEDULDIG:
10 Q Ms. Pincham, you had a phone conversation with
11 someone from Who's Who
Worldwide, that's the first time
12 you spoke with anyone from the organization; is that
13 right?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Can I ask you if there was more than one
16 conversation, or that was the only one you had?
17 A You know, sir, I have racked my mind. It seems that
18 I remember there was a call from a gentleman after he
19 received my letter saying I was not going to pay that
20 bill. But it seems that there was, and he argued with me
21 about it. And I told him under no circumstances. I was
22 supposed to receive a free directory, did not receive it
23 nor any of the other benefits. 24 Q That second call you referred to would have happened 25 months later?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4333 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And the first call you got was an inquiry as to
3 whether or not
-- withdrawn.
4 It was more of an interview about your personal
5 background and advising you that you had been nominated
6 for acceptance into the registry; is that right?
7 A An acknowledgment of the original letter I received
8 saying I was nominated, yes, sir.
9 Q And it was shortly after that telephone conversation
10 that you got the bill from Who's Who Worldwide?
11 A Yes. Because it was during that conversation that
12 the price was quoted to me, sir, and I accepted the
13 membership.
14 Q And so, the bill came, the credit card confirmation,
15 or the bill for the $290 came what would you say, a couple
16 of weeks after the telephone conversation?
17 A Probably thereabouts, two or three weeks.
18 Q And the second bill for the payment of the registry
19 came months after that; is that right?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And the bill you got, the first
bill you got had
22 contained the notification that there would be a second
23 bill coming when the registry had been published was known 24 to you months before you received this second bill; is 25 that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4334 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 A The answer to that could be yes and no, sir. Because
2 I was quoted the full price of $290.
3 Q I am just talking about the written bills you
4 received. I am not talking about the telephone
5 conversations at this point. I am just asking you if you
6 received that first bill with a notification that a second
7 bill would be coming months before you received the second
8 bill?
9 A Yes, sir, I did. I thought it was a standard form.
10 Q Okay.
11 And you saw -- you looked at the bill to make
12 sure that the amount was correct?
13 A
Yes, sir.
14 Q And you generally looked at the bill, you didn't just
15 throw it into the garbage can; is that right?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And you are not questioning that there was a notice
18 on that first bill telling you that there would be another
19 bill coming; is that right?
20 A I am not questioning that.
21 Q And it is also correct to say that at no point after
22 receiving that first bill did you call up Who's Who
23 Worldwide and ask anybody what's the story with this 24 second bill that is going to be coming when the registry 25 is published?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4335 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 A No, sir. Number one, I trusted them and number
2 two --
3 Q Your answer is you didn't call anybody?
4 A No, I didn't.
5 Q The second time you called is when you got the bill
6 mo
nths and months later?
7 A I didn't call, sir. I wrote a note on the bottom of
8 it.
9 Q All right.
10 When you got the call, the woman who was talking
11 to you said that this call also could be serving as an
12 interview, is that right, or words to that effect?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And she said the interview was for purposes of seeing
15 as to whether you were qualified for inclusion in the
16 registry?
17 A Yes, sir. And she also said the information she took
18 would be going back to a group of people to be reviewed.
19 Q And she took a bit of information from you; is that
20 right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And did you volunteer any information other than what
23 she asked you about? 24 A No, sir. 25 Q And she explained what membership in Who's Who would
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4336 Pinc
ham-cross/Geduldig
1 be, would entail; is that right?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q And she told you, to the best of your recollection
4 that the bill was $290 for the membership that you are
5 purchasing; is that right?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And you said, and she also said to you that you were
8 going to get a free trip to New York City?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And you were going to get a free dinner in New York
11 City?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And you were going to get a free plaque?
14 A Yes.
15 Q That you were going to get a free registry?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And you were going to get free seminars?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q What was the $290 you were paying, what was that for?
20 A I am supposing for all of that, sir.
21 Q Then it wasn't free, am I right or am I wrong?
22 A I have no idea, sir.
23 Q Well, you had the conversat
ion, I didn't. 24 A I know. 25 Q And she is saying to you it is going to cost $290 --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4337 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 A For the membership.
2 Q And the membership included such things as a plaque;
3 is that right?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And she said that to you?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And she said you are going to pay $290 to become a
8 member of Who's Who Worldwide; is that right? Is that
9 right?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And she said, when you become a member you will get a
12 plaque, right?
13 A You will get a plaque, you will get a --
14 Q Let me ask the question.
15 You will get a plaque, you will get seminars, and
16 the opportunity to attend seminars that you wish to
17 attend; is that right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q You will get the use of an office in
New York City if
20 you want it?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q You don't recall that?
23 A No. 24 Q You will get a trip to New York City? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4338 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 Q And you will get a registry?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q You will get a published registry?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q You will get a dinner; is that what your recollection
6 is?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Would I be correct in saying that what she told you
9 was that these benefits would come if you were to become a
10 member?
11 A That's true.
12 Q To become a member you would pay, have to pay $290?
13 A That's true.
14 Q She did not say to you that these things were free.
15 She said to you that if you pay the membership charge you
16 will get the benefits; is that right?
17 A Well, I paid the membership and didn't get the
18 benefits.
19 Q Well, some of the benefits, you got a plaque; is that
20 right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And whether or not you recall saying anything about a
23 second bill when the registry is published, and certainly 24 after the first bill you were told there that there would 25 be a second bill after the registry was published; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4339 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 correct?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q And am I not correct that it could very well have
4 been that the woman said to you it is $290, and these are
5 the benefits you can receive if you become a member, some
6 benefits you have to go out and seek; is that right?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q You don't think so?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q You expect people to line up and call you in
Yelm,
11 Washington, and sit down at a seminar?
12 A No. I expected the company to do what it said, and
13 notify me of where and when the seminars would be, and I
14 would attend and meet the people.
15 Q You made no effort to contact anybody certainly, or
16 to find out if there were other people -- I think
17 Mr. Trabulus just read off a list of names, and some of
18 the people you said you don't think you would be inclined
19 to meet with and the others that you might be inclined to
20 meet with?
21 A I couldn't get the names because I didn't get a
22 directory.
23 Q I understand that. And you didn't get a directory 24 because the company was asking you to pay an additional 25 $97 and you weren't prepared to pay it?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4340 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 A Even the card I sent in sai
d there was no charge for
2 your name being in there.
3 Q I agree. Just try to answer my question.
4 Isn't it correct as you sit here now, you know
5 you would have gotten the registry if you paid the $97,
6 that second bill?
7 A No, sir, I don't know. I didn't receive any of the
8 other benefits except for a nine by 12 plaque.
9 Q In your work, is it correct to say that you deal with
10 a lot of government agencies?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Isn't it fair to say you deal almost exclusively with
13 government agencies?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q And you place people in the government has
16 supervision, the State of Washington, and the localities
17 where you live, has supervision and the supervisory
18 authority to make certain that the children you place are
19 properly cared for; is that right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Now, the cost of all that is not p
aid by you, is it?
22 You don't pay for the state or the locality to supervise
23 the child you have placed in a particular home? 24 A No, sir. 25 Q The state pays for that, or the locality?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4341 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 A The state pays us and we provide that monitoring and
2 supervision.
3 Q So, your paycheck comes from the state?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q In every instance?
6 A Almost every instance. We have some private pay
7 clients.
8 Q All right.
9 They are very few in number; is that right?
10 A Yes, because we have a contract with the state.
11 Q And it is common for you to expect that any work you
12 do at all for -- with regard to the placement of children,
13 or with regard to the job that you do is paid for by the
14 government, by one government or anothe
r?
15 A Through the taxpayer's money, yes, sir.
16 Q So you have come to expect if you do your job or
17 anything related to your job, the expenses come from the
18 government?
19 A That's true.
20 Q They provide you with things you have to have to do
21 your job?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q Is it conceivable to you that you misinterpreted what 24 the woman was saying to you over the phone during the 25 first conversation?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4342 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 A No, sir. I asked her too many times.
2 Q All right.
3 Among the things asked her is how you got named
4 or nominated?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And she said to her knowledge you were nominated in
7 one of two ways; is that right?
8 A She did not say to her knowledge. She said it was a
9 fact.
10 Q She
said that you were nominated either by someone
11 who knew about you; is that right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Or it was the -- I can't think of the second way you
14 might have been nominated?
15 A One of the members.
16 Q One of the members in the registry would have
17 nominated you?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And did you ask her if there were any other names
20 you -- other ways you might have been nominated?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What did she say?
23 A She said no. That the company did not solicit any 24 nominations. The reason so few were chosen is because all 25 were cast out except the cream of the crop and new members
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4343 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 were opened only by attrition.
2 Q And this was the information she gave to you?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Now, did she tell you
the percentage of people
5 accepted in terms of those rejected?
6 A I don't remember the actual numbers, but the
7 percentage of who were rejected were low.
8 Q Did she tell you the number of people in the
9 registry?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q Have you ever seen the registry?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q Do you know if it exists?
14 A I am sure it does, because I have been told by
15 Mr. White that it exists.
16 Q Mr. White told you it exists?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And that's the gentleman over here?
19 A That's right.
20 Q He never showed you the registry?
21 A He couldn't. We were talking on the telephone.
22 Q Did there ever come a point in time that you met
23 prior to coming here to testify today? 24 A I met him this morning. 25 Q That's the first time you met?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4344 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did you have conversations with Mr. Pagano?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Did you ever have an eyeball conversation with
5 Mr. Pagano where you could look at him, he could look at
6 you?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q All these conversations were on the phone up until
9 the time you met Mr. White for the first time, when was
10 it, this morning?
11 A This morning.
12 Q That's the first time you have ever seen anyone from
13 the government side; is that correct?
14 A Ms. Scott visited me last night in the hotel room.
15 Q Any of these conversations you had over the phone or
16 the most recent ones you had with them in person, did you
17 ever ask them if the registry existed?
18 A I didn't have to. Mr. White ask me if I ever
19 received a copy. I said no. He said, do you know if it
20 existed?
21 He sa
id -- I said no, and he said it existed.
22 Q Did you ever ask to see the entry of your registry?
23 A No. 24 Q You never paid for it? 25 A It was supposed to be a free copy.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4345 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 Q You would not have been pleased if you paid $290 and
2 got a registry that your name didn't appear in?
3 A I wouldn't be pleased if I got a plaque for $290, and
4 that's all I got.
5 Q I know you are annoyed, and try to answer my
6 questions, I will ask you questions, and if you can, try
7 to answer my questions.
8 If you paid $290 to be a member of this registry
9 and you found out that your name was not in the registry,
10 you would have been more annoyed than you are today; is
11 that correct?
12 A I would have been still annoyed.
13 Q You would have been complete
ly taken, and you would
14 have paid $290 for absolutely nothing but a plaque?
15 A Sir, you don't understand. That's how I feel.
16 Q But you say you never asked about the registry, and
17 Mr. White told you that the registry exists?
18 A Yes.
19 Q You never asked Mr. White if you could see it?
20 A I actually didn't care, because the time had passed.
21 THE COURT: You will have to slow down a bit,
22 Mr. Geduldig.
23 THE WITNESS: I am sorry. 24 THE COURT: You have to wait until the question 25 is over before you answer, Ms. Pincham.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4346 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 If you talk at the same time the attorney does,
2 it is difficult for us to hear it and for the reporter to
3 take it down.
4 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, sir.
5 Q Let me show you what is marked as
6 Defe
ndant's Exhibit Q in evidence, the Global Edition of
7 Who's Who.
8 At the top of the page as I have indicated to
9 you, I believe your name appears; is that right?
10 A Yes, it does.
11 Q Would you read it to yourself, please, what appears
12 underneath your name?
13 A Director --
14 Q You can read it to yourself.
15 A To myself, all right, sir.
16 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
17 proceedings.)
18 Q At is your name?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And is it fair to say the information appearing
21 underneath your name in the registry is accurate and
22 correct?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And that's the information you provided to the person 25 you provided when you spoke to them on the phone from
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4347 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 Who's Who Worldwide?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q And so, there is no question, is there, in your mind,
4 as you sit here today, that there is a registry, that your
5 name does appear in that registry, and the information
6 about you that appears in the registry is accurate and
7 correct?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q So, we know there is a registry and we know you got a
10 plaque; is that right?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And one of the things that bothers you greatly is
13 nobody from the company called you for, I think you called
14 it brain storming; is that right? Isn't that your phrase?
15 A Brain storming is what I would have liked to have
16 done with other people I met either through the directory
17 or at the seminars or work shops.
18 Q And one of the things that annoys you is that there
19 was none of this brain storming. You wanted to do that
20 and it didn't happen; is that ri
ght?
21 A I wanted to attend the seminars and work shops, sir.
22 Q Okay.
23 Is it also fair to stay that there was never a 24 time, either from the point in time you paid the $290, 25 until you got the second bill, that you ever called the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4348 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 company and say words to the effect, when is the first
2 seminar, or is there going to be a seminar, or what is the
3 story with seminars? You never made any inquiry regarding
4 the seminars?
5 A No, sir. I was expecting them to do what they said.
6 I work with 37 children and my time --
7 Q I understand. But the question is, you never called
8 at all to do anything with the seminars?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q I am right?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And at the end of the telephone call, the first
13 telephone c
onversation you had, did the person from Who's
14 Who Worldwide tell you that you had qualified in their
15 opinion for inclusion in the registry?
16 A Yes, sir. She said she could not say that for sure
17 because it still had to be reviewed, but in her opinion I
18 probably would be selected.
19 Q Did she tell you that people in the registry came
20 from all over the country?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Did she tell you the number of people in the
23 registry? 24 A No, sir. 25 Q Did she say it was in the many, many thousands, tens
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4349 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 of thousands were in the registry?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q Did she tell you they had members overseas, in other
4 countries other than America?
5 A Not that I can remember, sir.
6 MR. GEDULDIG: I don't think I have any
other
7 questions.
8 THE COURT: Anyone else?
9 MR. GEDULDIG: Just a second, Judge.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
12 proceedings.)
13 Q Ms. Pincham, the membership you purchased was for
14 five years?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You joined in 1992?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Theoretically if you had paid the second bill you
19 would have been a member up to 1997; is that right, from
20 1992 to 1997, approximately?
21 A Based upon the saying that it was a split billing,
22 based on what I was told, I would have already have been
23 because I paid the full $297, sir. 24 Q So your membership would have run to approximately 25 1997; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4350 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 A Yes.
2 Q Let me show you what is mark
ed as Gordon-H, page 11
3 of the magazine. There is a little squib and a picture of
4 Sarah O'Mera, O apostrophe M E R A. There is a person and
5 there is a little story about them, a paragraph. I would
6 ask you to read that to yourself, please.
7 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
8 proceedings.)
9 Q Is that a person you might be interested in brain
10 storming?
11 A Yes.
12 Q She is a member of Who's Who Worldwide registry
13 according to the magazine?
14 A I didn't see that, but I assume since the article is
15 there.
16 Five year member.
17 Q Am I right that sometimes when you brain storm, you
18 don't have to meet with people that are directly in your
19 line of work, but maybe in an associated line of work?
20 They do things similar to you, but not exactly what you
21 would do; is that right?
22 A True.
23 Q People, for instance, I think you said you deal with 24 children who are severely handicapped? 25 A No. Traumatized emotionally.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4351 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 Q Traumatized emotionally. But some of their problems,
2 not the same as a child who is blind, but a blind person
3 might have similar problems in adapting to their
4 surroundings or making friends, or whatever it might be,
5 but their problems might be similar to a traumatized young
6 person?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And so, it would be beneficial to sometimes brain
9 storm with an individual who is not directly in your line
10 of work, but does something similar; is that right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q So, the list that Mr. Trabulus read to you before I
13 got up here, he mentioned some people that you said you
14 were not incline
d to meet with, but those people I
15 conceive could tell you things about their line of work
16 that might be similar to your line of work; is that
17 correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Although you might not want to meet with people like
20 that, it might be beneficial if you did so?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q If I could, you read the Tribute magazine for
23 Ms. O'Mera. 24 What I would like you to read is read what is 25 marked as -- is this marked?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4352 Pincham-cross/Geduldig
1 I would like you to read from what is Gordon-G in
2 evidence.
3 I would like you to read the letter from
4 Ms. O'Mera, and read it slowly so the court reporter can
5 get it down.
6 A I am so pleased with the completed profile as it
7 appears in your premier issue of Tribute, winter of 1994.
8
I feel you and your staff do an outstanding job of
9 bringing information to the forefront. Thank you for
10 adding further exposure to my life's work. Only through
11 visibility can we build the Army which is necessary to
12 eradicate child abuse, Sarah O'Mera.
13 Q And Ms. O'Mera was the profile I asked you to read
14 just a little bit ago?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 MR. GEDULDIG: No further questions.
17 THE COURT: Anything else?
18
19 CROSS-EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. LEE:
21 Q Good morning.
22 My name is Winston Lee. How are you?
23 THE COURT: Just a second, and let the witness 24 get a glass of water, Mr. Lee. 25 Q You stated you had a prior meeting with Ms. Scott
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4353 Pincham-cross/Lee
1 before you came to testify here today?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q Would i
t be fair to say that -- it was in your hotel
4 room; is that correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Would it be fair to say that she went over with you
7 the layout of the courtroom?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q Did she do that?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q Did she describe to you what the courtroom would look
12 like?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Have you ever testified in a courtroom before, ma'am?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q You have.
17 Did she, did she describe to you that there would
18 be a group of people on one side of the courtroom, the
19 defense attorneys?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Did she tell you that they were going to issue a lot
22 of questions?
23 A She said I would be asked a lot of questions, yes, 24 sir. 25 Q Did she say that to you?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4354 Pincham-cross/Lee
1
A Yes, sir.
2 Q Did she say to you that there would be a group of
3 defense attorneys asking you questions?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q She told you she would be asking you questions?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q She described to you the questions she would be
8 asking you; is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Did she go over with you the type of questions she
11 would be asking you?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Did she provide you with a sort of general outline of
14 what type of questions and what type of answers you would
15 give, an outline for you to keep in mind as you testify?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Did she give you a sort of a guideline to guide you
18 in how to testify in court today?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q As far as general themes or general points that you
21 should hit in your testimony?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q Did she go over with you some prior ques
tionnaires 24 that you had answered, and the answer you had written 25 prior to coming in today?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4355 Pincham-cross/Lee
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q She sat down with you, and you both sat down and
3 reviewed what you had in fact written in response to a
4 questionnaire back on June 29th of 1995; is that correct?
5 A No, sir.
6 MR. LEE: Could I have the 3500 exhibit?
7 Q Did she go over with you a questionnaire that you had
8 in fact sent back to the government back on June 29th,
9 1995?
10 A No. She told me that she might refer to that
11 questionnaire sometime today. But she did not go over it
12 with me.
13 Q During her conference with you yesterday, did she
14 have the questionnaire with her?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q I would just like to show you -- this is
17 Gov
ernment's Exhibit 3500-WP-1.
18 (Handed to the witness.)
19 Q You can take it out of the plastic folder, ma'am.
20 Do you recognize that exhibit, ma'am?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And when was, prior to you looking at it right now,
23 when was the last time you saw that exhibit? Was it last 24 night? 25 A No, sir. I have had -- I maintain a copy of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4356 Pincham-cross/Lee
1 everything that I send and mailed so when I received this
2 I maintained a copy it, sir.
3 Q When was the last time you reviewed that
4 questionnaire, the exhibit I have shown you, which I
5 identified as 3500-WP-1?
6 A I never reviewed it. I was asked some questions from
7 Mr. White, and she was -- he was saying on the telephone
8 you said so and so on the questionnaire, would you explain
9 to me what you meant.
That was on the telephone before.
10 I have never actually gone over this with anyone.
11 Q Well, over the phone, when was that conversation with
12 Mr. White?
13 A Probably six months ago.
14 Q Six months from today?
15 A Somewhere last fall. They told me originally that
16 the trial was to start I believe in October and then told
17 me it was postponed until January. Because they tried me
18 to -- asked me to arrange my affairs so I could be here.
19 Q Now, when Mr. White went over the questionnaire with
20 you, did he make a point of going over the entire
21 questionnaire from beginning to end, or did he just kind
22 of like take certain portions out of it and ask you about
23 specific portions of it? 24 A Asked me to explain what I meant by certain answers 25 of it. He didn't ask me to go over question by question.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM O
FFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4357 Pincham-cross/Lee
1 Q It wasn't a complete review of your questionnaire to
2 the government?
3 A That's right.
4 Q It was certain portions of it?
5 A I assume it was certain questions I had not fully
6 explained myself on.
7 MR. LEE: I would ask that be stricken from the
8 record which is unresponsive.
9 THE COURT: Can I have the question and answer,
10 please.
11 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the
12 requested material.)
13 THE COURT: Motion granted. Strike the answer as
14 not being responsive. You may inquire.
15 Q Ms. Pincham, if you can answer yes or no, I will ask
16 you to do that.
17 My question was, when Mr. White was asking you
18 questions, am I correct that it was not a complete review
19 of the questionnaire, but only certain portions he picked
20 out and asked you a
bout; am I correct? Yes or no?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, you recall testifying, and I want to bring you
23 back to the time you had a certain conversation with 24 someone from the organization, and I believe it was in 25 late '92; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4358 Pincham-cross/Lee
1 A From Who's Who, yes, sir.
2 Q I want you to think back to that point in time.
3 You had expectations or had envisioned that you
4 would possibly be able to do some brain storming as a
5 result of your membership; is that correct?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q How did you expect the exchange of ideas between you
8 and other members, the brain storming, thinking back to
9 late '92, when you were having this conversation, what was
10 your expectation on how you would accomplish this brain
11 storming?
12 A Two ways.
13 One, she said, the lady I was talking to, said
14 that all the other members would be notified by mail of me
15 and my profile, and so I expected I might be able to do
16 some brain storming when other members heard about my
17 profile. And then at the work shops and seminars.
18 Q Now, other than -- what -- now, were you expecting to
19 have to on your own initiative, reach out and contact
20 people?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q You were not expecting that would be one of the ways
23 in which you would accomplish brain storming or 24 networking? Am I correct in stating that? 25 A If I had received their profiles, yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4359 Pincham-cross/Lee
1 Q My question to you is: Were you expecting yourself
2 to actually have to put some work into this, and to try to
3 reach out and contact other
members? Were you expecting
4 to have to do that in order to obtain some of the benefits
5 from your membership?
6 A Sir, I can't answer that yes or no, because --
7 Q I will just ask you this question.
8 Thinking back, can you recall as to whether or
9 not you would have to make an effort to reach out by mail,
10 by any sort of initiative on your part, to reach out to
11 other members, would you expect to do that, you would have
12 to do that? Yes or no?
13 A I can't answer that yes or no, sir.
14 Q Can you recall --
15 THE COURT: I was just going to tell you that you
16 didn't have to answer any question yes or no. Please try
17 to be responsive by answering yes or no, if you can. If
18 you can't, just say as you just did, I can't answer that
19 question yes or no. So, you were one step ahead of me.
20 All right.
21 Q Ms. Pincham, is the reason yo
u can't provide an
22 answer to the jury is because you can't recall what you
23 were thinking back in '92? 24 A No, sir. It was simply once I received the directory 25 and knew who to call and write to, once I went to the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4360 Pincham-cross/Lee
1 seminars and work shops and met some of the people to know
2 who to contact, of course I would have contacted them to
3 contact and network with them. I didn't receive that,
4 sir.
5 Q So, your testimony is that if you had decided to go
6 ahead and purchase the registry, that you would have, as
7 far as you could tell, you would have gone ahead and used
8 it to try to make efforts to contact people, yes or no?
9 You would have done that?
10 A I am I received it, yes, sir.
11 Q You state there was some misunderstanding.
12 Your understa
nding is you paid the full price; is
13 that correct?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Regardless of what was the cause of the
16 understanding, I want you to suppose for a moment -- just
17 suppose you received a second bill, and for whatever
18 reason, that perhaps there was not ever a
19 misunderstanding, or you just went ahead and decided to
20 purchase the registry for an additional $97, plus tax,
21 that you would have then used the registry and tried to
22 get from it what you had expected from the very beginning;
23 is that correct? 24 A I am sorry, sir. By that time I would not have put 25 good money after bad. I had no way of knowing I would
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4361 Pincham-cross/Lee
1 receive a registry regardless of how much I paid.
2 Q Yes, your state of mind was that you had decided you
3 would no
t purchase; am I right?
4 A I was not going to pay any more money.
5 Q For the registry.
6 What I am saying is if the registry had been
7 available to you and upon review if you had discovered
8 that there were more people with similar interests to you,
9 is there a possibility that you might have utilized it to
10 your benefit?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q That's a fair statement, isn't that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q You stated an additional thing you were expecting was
15 called work shops; isn't that correct?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q You said you were told by the company, Who's Who,
18 that conferences -- work shops, if you will, would be
19 held; is that correct?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Now, did this have a lot to do with your decision to
22 purchase a membership?
23 A Not to the extent of being nominated by someone who 24 knew me and held
me in the highest esteem, sir. 25 Q You stated that was one of the reasons?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4362 Pincham-cross/Lee
1 A Yes.
2 Q And there were other reasons?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And my question -- of course, you just told us that,
5 am I correct, that one of the reasons was also the ability
6 to attend seminars or conferences?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q My question to you is: And I want you to be as
9 accurate as possible for the jury, the seminars and the
10 work shops, did that affect your decision a lot to
11 purchase a membership?
12 A Yes, less than did the other, but it did have an
13 effect on it.
14 Q Did it have a lot to do with your decision, yes or
15 no?
16 A Sir, it depends on what you mean by a lot. On a
17 scale of one to ten, being nominated by someone who cared
18 t
hat much about me was probably a good six, and then maybe
19 the seminars and work shops would have been a three.
20 Q Well, let me ask you, in your words would you say it
21 had very little to do -- well, withdrawn -- withdrawn.
22 I have no further questions.
23 THE COURT: Any other questions? 24 MS. SCOTT: I have redirect, your Honor. 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4363 Pincham-redirect/White
1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. WHITE:
3 Q Ms. Pincham, do you remember being asked questions on
4 cross-examination about your memory of your first contact
5 with the company?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q Do you remember testifying that you remember first
8 being contacted by letter?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q Do you remember Mr. Trabulus asking you about your
11 answer on the questionnaire where you said that
your first
12 contact was by telephone?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q Can you tell us when approximately you filled that
15 questionnaire out?
16 A It was, I think in the summer a year and a half ago,
17 maybe, in '95. I don't remember for sure.
18 Q Can you tell us why your answers to those
19 questions -- withdrawn.
20 Can you tell us why you gave a different answer
21 on the questionnaire than you gave today in the courtroom?
22 A When I sat down -- they happened so close together
23 that my memory at that time, I simply wrote down telephone 24 and then by letter. And then when I went back and 25 reviewed my own copies of the materials, I realized that I
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4364 Pincham-redirect/White
1 had sent the card in first.
2 Q When you say sent the card in first, what do you
3 mean?
4 A Before I received the telephone called.
5 Q Do you remember answering questions what you did with
6 your plaque?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Can you tell us when you hung the plaque on the wall?
9 A As soon as I received it.
10 Q You mentioned also on cross-examination that the
11 plaque is no longer hanging on the wall?
12 A No. By the time that I got the second bill I was
13 beginning to have very, very sad upset feelings, and I
14 took it off the wall of my office, and I hung it on a
15 little small wall between the bathroom and the bedroom.
16 And then when I finally realized that there was none of it
17 going to happen, I took it down completely.
18 Q When did you realize, as you said, that none of it
19 was going to happen?
20 A After the '93-'94 directory had not come to me.
21 There was already a year, and I received no notice of
22 seminars, and
received nothing but the plaque, and then
23 when I received no registry, I knew. 24 Q Do you remember Mr. Trabulus reading some names to 25 you of people whom he suggested you might be interested in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4365 Pincham-redirect/White
1 talking with?
2 A Yes, sir -- yes, ma'am.
3 Q Do you remember him asking you if you might be
4 interested in speaking with some of those people?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q At the time you made this purchase did you have any
7 idea that the company used mailing lists to obtain new
8 members?
9 A Oh, no.
10 Q Is that something you would have wanted to know
11 before making a purchase?
12 MR. GEDULDIG: Objection, Judge. Rehashing the
13 direct.
14 THE COURT: Overruled.
15 A I would certainly have wanted to know. I would not
16 have purc
hased a membership had I known my name was taken
17 from a mailing list.
18 Q Now, these names that Mr. Trabulus read to you as
19 being people from Who's Who Worldwide, members of Who's
20 Who Worldwide, did you ever know about any of those people
21 before today?
22 A No, ma'am.
23 Q Had you ever seen a directory containing those names 24 before today? 25 A No, ma'am.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4366 Pincham-redirect/White
1 Q Now, do you remember Mr. Geduldig asking you
2 questions about the first bill sent to you, the first
3 invoice?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q Do you remember him asking you about the warning
6 appearing in blue on that document, warning about possible
7 second payment?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q Do you remember Mr. Geduldig asking you about whether
10 you made any kind of
complaint to the company other than
11 the letter you told us you wrote?
12 A I remember him asking.
13 Q Do you remember him saying you didn't complain other
14 than the one letter you wrote?
15 A I remember.
16 Q I am sorry?
17 A I said I remember.
18 Q Can you tell us, why you never complained after
19 writing that second letter?
20 MR. LEE: Objection, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Overruled.
22 A Part of the reason is because of all the children we
23 were working with, the amount of time that would have been 24 invested in something like that. Part of it is because I 25 had already lost the money. And I just am not that kind
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4367 Pincham-redirect/White
1 of a person. Part of it is because no one likes to admit
2 that they had been -- they lost money and it hadn't gone
3 for a good cause.
4 MS. SCOTT: May I have a moment, your Honor?
5 THE COURT: Yes.
6 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
7 proceedings.)
8 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, Ms. Pincham. I have no
9 further questions.
10 THE COURT: Anyone else?
11 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
12
13 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. TRABULUS:
15 Q Ms. Pincham, I think I heard you say that after about
16 a year you came to the realization that certain things
17 were not going to happen, and you said that there were no
18 seminars and no magazine.
19 In your initial conversation with the woman who
20 spoke to you over the telephone, were you told that there
21 was going to be a magazine?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And you were told that in 1992? 24 A I was told that in 1992, and that's what really 25 surprised me when I just read this, premier
issue, winter
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4368 Pincham-recross/Trabulus
1 of '94.
2 Q In the questionnaire that you filled out for the
3 postal inspectors, was there any mention by you of a
4 magazine?
5 A Not to my recollection.
6 Q You mentioned you didn't get the directory; is that
7 correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And you didn't mention you didn't get a magazine,
10 right?
11 A I don't remember, sir.
12 Q If I were to tell you that the magazine hadn't even
13 been conceived of as of the fall of 1992, would that
14 suggest to you that it is possible that it was something
15 that came into your memory, perhaps a mistake, and more
16 recently?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q And at the time you filled out the questionnaire, you
19 put in that you had received a telephone call originally
20 a
nd then received something by mail; is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q That was your recollection by the -- at the time; is
23 that correct? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Those -- that recollection was mistaken?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4369 Pincham-recross/Trabulus
1 A That happens in --
2 Q Is it difficult to answer as to whether it was
3 mistaken?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q Was it mistaken at the time?
6 A It was a mistake I wrote down at the time of the
7 original questionnaire.
8 Q Was your recollection mistaken -- withdrawn.
9 When you wrote it down on the questionnaire, you
10 were honestly writing down what was a recollection you had
11 in your head at that time; is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And that recollection was mistaken at that time?
14 A Yes. 11 days mistake.
15 Q I beg yo
ur pardon?
16 A Eleven days mistake.
17 Q It was a mistake in reference to the order in which
18 things had happened; is that right?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Now, I take it you never asked for a refund; is that
21 correct?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q It is not correct? 24 A It is correct. I did not ask for a refund. 25 Q And I think you also indicated that the questionnaire
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4370 Pincham-recross/Trabulus
1 was filled out maybe a year and a half ago in one of your
2 answers?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q You have it in front of you there?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q If it was filled out in June of 1995?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q So it is more than two and a half years ago; is that
9 right?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Now, let's go through what you told Mr. Geduldig, and
12 you n
ow remember you were told in that initial telephone
13 conversation.
14 You were told the total cost would be $290; is
15 that correct?
16 A $297.
17 Q I am sorry, 297?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q You were told there is no cost for being included in
20 the registry; is that correct?
21 A I would receive a free copy of the registry.
22 Q You mentioned that even the card said there was no
23 cost for inclusion of the registry; is that correct? 24 A It is true. 25 Q You have the card there?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4371 Pincham-recross/Trabulus
1 A No, sir.
2 Q And no cost for inclusion doesn't mean you wouldn't
3 get a copy, but that your name would be listed without any
4 payment?
5 A Yes, sir. But she told me I would get a free
6 directory.
7 Q Did I ask you that?
8
A I believe you implied that, sir.
9 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
10 THE COURT: The question, did I ask you that.
11 That objection is sustained. If you wish to move to
12 strike it, move to strike it. Please do not argue with
13 the witness.
14 Q Now, you were told you would get for your $297, the
15 following things: A trip back and forth to New York?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Is that correct?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Before that time, had you ever flown to New York or
20 to the east coast before?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And how much did that cost?
23 A With the courtesy of the military, my husband spent 24 23 years in the Army, and we flew back and forth around 25 the world.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4372 Pincham-recross/Trabulus
1 Q Are you familiar generally with what the cost of
2 aviation wou
ld be for a round trip cost from the eastcoast
3 to Washington?
4 A I would assume around $400.
5 Q You were also going to get a dinner to New York once
6 you were here; is that correct?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q You were going to stay in a hotel?
9 A I would assume.
10 Q Certainly you weren't going to be going back the same
11 day you flew; is that correct?
12 A No.
13 Q And were you told that your expenses would be all
14 paid?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q And that would be include the hotel?
17 A I would assume so.
18 Q And you were told you would be getting a book; is
19 that correct?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And the book was going to be -- was the book
22 described to you in terms of how it would look?
23 A The only thing that was described to me is that it 24 would be sectioned off into like -- which is why I was 25 glanc
ing at it to see if it really was, sir, that it would
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4373 Pincham-recross/Trabulus
1 be of like fields and professions so it would be easy to
2 find.
3 Q Were you told the book was going to be a thick book,
4 a lot of names?
5 A I don't remember being told it was going to be a
6 thick book.
7 Q Were you given to understand that there were
8 thousands of people in Who's Who Worldwide?
9 A No. I was given to understand that there are lots of
10 people.
11 Q Did you understand that -- did you expect the book
12 you would be getting would be a substantial thick book?
13 A I would say I was probably expecting something around
14 an inch thick.
15 Q You also understood you would be receiving a plaque;
16 is that correct?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Was the plaque described
to you in its appearance?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Was the size of it told to you?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And you were going to be getting for the $290, a
23 round trip flight to New York worth about $400, dinner, a 24 hotel room, a book and a plaque, that's what you 25 understood? I want to summarize; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4374 Pincham-recross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And you understood that Who's Who Worldwide was a
3 business, did you not?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q You didn't believe that it was a not for profit
6 organization, did you?
7 A I didn't think.
8 Q No one told you that, did they?
9 A No.
10 Q Did you ask any questions of the person you spoke to
11 about how they would be able to afford to give you any of
12 these things, all these things at that point in t
ime?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Is it possible the reason you didn't ask any
15 questions is because the person didn't really say all
16 those things at that point in time, and your memory today
17 as to everything told to you in that conversation is
18 somehow mistaken?
19 A No, sir.
20 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.
21 MR. GEDULDIG: Just one or two.
22
23 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. GEDULDIG: 25 Q Ms. Pincham, Ms. Scott asked you some questions just
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4375 Pincham-recross/Trabulus
1 a bit ago about the reasons that you did not complain
2 after you had gotten the second bill; do you remember
3 that?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q I think the explanation you gave is it would take too
6 much time from the children and the work you were doing?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And you are a person who doesn't like to admit that
9 you had been had; is that right?
10 A That's true.
11 Q Now, am I correct in saying that you never wrote a
12 letter to the better business bureau in Yelm, or wherever
13 the next biggest city might be in Washington where you
14 lived?
15 A No, I didn't.
16 Q You did not call up on the telephone the local
17 prosecutor, the district attorney in Yelm or the next
18 biggest city to tell them that you had been had?
19 A No, I didn't.
20 Q A telephone call would not have taken a whole lot of
21 time; isn't that fair to say?
22 A That's probably true.
23 Q And a letter, you could have sat down and written out 24 has letter in an hour or less; is that fair to say? 25 A It is not what happens right then --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4376 Pincham
-recross/Trabulus
1 Q My question is: Could you have written a letter in
2 an hour or less explaining how you felt you had been
3 taken?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And now you are here in New York; is that right?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q You came out yesterday?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q You may not get back until tomorrow?
10 A That's true.
11 Q A that's three days?
12 A Yes.
13 Q You are going to be away from the children?
14 A That's why I didn't write the original letter.
15 Q I understand that, but you are here today and you
16 will be away from the children; is that right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q You are going to be away for three days from the work
19 you do; is that right?
20 A That's true.
21 Q So, you are spending a whole lot more time today
22 testifying in this court than you ever could have spent in
23 calling up the bett
er business bureau or the local 24 district attorney to tell them what had happened to you; 25 is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4377 Pincham-recross/Trabulus
1 A No. Because it could have lead to the same amount of
2 time, sir.
3 Q Is your trip here today a freebie, are you paying a
4 dime from Yelm, Washington to New York?
5 A They wanted to reimburse me --
6 Q Are you paying a dime for the trip you took from
7 Yelm, Washington to New York?
8 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
9 THE COURT: Sustained as to form.
10 Q Are you paying any money at all to travel to this
11 courtroom?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q How much did you pay?
14 A So far $76 for the taxi fare. I paid for all my
15 meals. The only thing I didn't pay for is my hotel
16 room --
17 Q Is your husband here with you?
1
8 A No, he is home with the children.
19 Q You got a free trip to New York paid for by the
20 government; is that right?
21 A It should have been paid by Worldwide. I am sorry.
22 Q But it is paid by the government?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And your hotel room is being made by the government? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4378 Pincham-recross/Trabulus
1 Q And this is the first time that you ever testified or
2 gave any explanation to what happened in a court or to
3 prosecutors regarding what happened some five or six years
4 ago?
5 A That's true.
6 MR. GEDULDIG: I have no further questions.
7 MS. SCOTT: Nothing further, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 You may step down.
10 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the
11 witness stand.)
12 THE COURT: Members of the
jury, we will take a
13 ten-minute recess.
14 We are going to take a later lunch today. I have
15 a meeting here, a judge's meeting. So we are going to
16 take lunch from 1:00 to 2:15 p.m.
17 Please do not discuss the case and keep an open
18 mind. And please recess yourselves.
19 (Whereupon, at this time the jury left the
20 courtroom.)
21
22 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4379
1 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
2 courtroom.)
3 THE COURT: You may proceed.
4 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the government calls
5 Steven Watstein.
6 THE CLERK: Please stand and raise your right
7 hand.
8
9 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N,
10 called as a witness, having been first
11 duly sworn, was examined and tes
tified
12 as follows:
13
14 THE CLERK: Please state your name and spell your
15 last name slowly for the record.
16 THE WITNESS: Steven Watstein, W A T S T E I N.
17 THE COURT: How do you spell Steven?
18 THE WITNESS: S T E V E N.
19 THE COURT: Have a seat, please.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 THE COURT: You may proceed.
22 MR. WHITE: Thank you, your Honor.
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4380 Watstein-direct/White
1 DIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. WHITE:
3 Q Mr. Watstein, can you tell us how old you are?
4 A 56.
5 Q Tell us where you live, please?
6 A In Weston, Florida, W E S T O N.
7 Q And what do you do for a living?
8 A I am the president of Seminar Industries of America.
9 Q What sort of business is that?
10 A I do business con
sulting and run seminars for
11 companies.
12 Q Can you tell us what sort of seminars you run for
13 companies?
14 A Seminars on marketing strategies, stategic marketing
15 planning and professional selling.
16 Q And can you tell us who are some of your clients?
17 A I advise the --
18 THE COURT: One minute. First of all, would you
19 please slow down, Mr. Watstein. Also, pull the microphone
20 closer to you.
21 What is the answer to the question?
22 THE WITNESS: I advise the asset base division of
23 Core, C O R E, State Bank; a company called Just Great 24 Coffee, and a company called Larry Tucker, Inc. 25 Q Now, do you use any other names besides Steven
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4381 Watstein-direct/White
1 Watstein?
2 A Yes, sir, Steven West, W E S T.
3 Q And why do you use that nam
e?
4 A I have used that name for the last 35 years in the
5 business world.
6 Q Now, have you ever heard of a business named Who's
7 Who in U.S. Executives?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Who is the CEO, chief executive in Who's Who in U.S.
10 Executives?
11 A I was.
12 Q Tell us when it was you were the chief executive of
13 that company?
14 A From 1988 to 1991.
15 Q Now, was your wife also involved in this business?
16 A She was titled president, but not actively involved
17 in the business.
18 Q Now, where was this business located?
19 A The business was located in Great Neck, New York.
20 Q Can you describe for us in general terms what type of
21 business Who's Who in Executives was?
22 A It was a company publishing Who's Who directories and
23 had a Who's Who membership program and marketed books and 24 plaques to its members.
25 Q How many Who's Who type directories did your company
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4382 Watstein-direct/White
1 publish?
2 A I believe it was five or six.
3 Q Now, did you participate in a scheme to defraud the
4 customers of your company?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Can you describe how your company, Who's Who in
7 Executives, operate?
8 A We secured mailing lists of individuals and mailed
9 letters to them indicating they were nominated for
10 inclusion in our Who's Who directory. When those
11 nomination ballots were received, they were allocated to
12 salespeople who made phone calls to the individuals.
13 These salespeople would interview the individuals on the
14 phone and then would attempt to sell them various products
15 and services.
16 Q Now, when your company told customers they had been
17 nomina
ted was that true?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q And in truth where did you obtain the names from?
20 A Mailing lists.
21 Q What sort of mailing lists did you use?
22 A For example, Dun & Bradstreet executive of mailing
23 lists. There was a directory called Carroll, 24 C A R R O L L, Directory in Law Enforcement. Forbes 25 Magazine or Fortune Magazine, various magazines
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4383 Watstein-direct/White
1 subscriptions, the American Association of Female
2 Executives comes to mind.
3 Q Now, did you make any misleading statements to
4 customers regarding how they had been selected or how they
5 would be evaluated by your company?
6 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
7 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: What grounds?
9 MR. TRABULUS: Form.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 A
Yes, sir.
12 Q Tell us what misleading statements you made?
13 A Are you referring to mailings or referring to the
14 sales presentations or both, sir?
15 Q Both.
16 A As it related to the mailings we indicated that
17 people were confidentially nominated for inclusion into
18 Who's Who, when in fact it was not the case. Their names
19 were secured from mailing lists. And on the mailing
20 pieces that we sent out, we indicated there was an
21 advisory committee, when in fact there was no such
22 advisory committee.
23 In the actual sales presentations we indicated we 24 were extremely selective insofar as the inclusion of 25 individuals, when in fact we were not extremely
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4384 Watstein-direct/White
1 selective.
2 The salespeople indicated that it was a
3 prestigious or
ganization, when in fact in truth it was
4 not. And those are some examples relevant to your
5 question, sir.
6 Q Now, were the letters sent by your company -- what
7 percentage of customers who wanted to be included in your
8 company's directories were included?
9 A I suspect the answer is 99 percent.
10 Q Were the letters sent by your company to potential
11 customers signed by anyone?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q By whom were they signed?
14 A They were signed by individuals who in fact did not
15 exist, who were being used by code names and with the
16 viewpoint toward sounding prestigious.
17 Q Can you give us the examples of some of the names you
18 used?
19 A Yes, sir. Thornton Rockefeller and Harlan Carnegie.
20 Q Did you use those names in order to deceive potential
21 customers?
22 A Partially, sir.
23 Q You said before your compan
y had a telemarketing 24 sales staff? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4385 Watstein-direct/White
1 Q Can you tell us approximately how many people worked
2 in your company?
3 A At its peak there were 70 salespeople. On average
4 there was 30 or 40.
5 Q And what was the job title that you gave to the
6 telemarketers to your company?
7 A Associate member or associate director of the
8 membership committee.
9 Q And why did you give them that name?
10 A I felt it would sound more prestigious.
11 Q Did you do that to deceive potential customers?
12 A Partially, yes.
13 MR. NELSON: Objection.
14 THE COURT: What ground?
15 MR. NELSON: The form of the question, your
16 Honor.
17 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained as to form.
18 MR. NELSON: Ask the answer be stricken.
19 TH
E COURT: Strike it out the answer.
20 Q Now, did the sales persons interview potential
21 customers on the telephone?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And what were the customers told regarding why they 24 were to be interviewed? 25 A That the interview was required to determine if they
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4386 Watstein-direct/White
1 were properly qualified to be included in our Who's Who
2 directory of executive program.
3 Q Was it untrue?
4 A No.
5 Q In what way was it untrue?
6 A In fact, we accepted 99 percent of the people, the
7 interview was more calculated to achieve sales objectives
8 than to actually qualify individuals.
9 Q What sales objectives are you referring to?
10 A The attempt was for us to sell books, plaques and
11 other membership services and generate revenue.
12 Q Did y
ou make any false statements regarding the
13 reputation of your company?
14 A I believe we overstated the prestige of our company
15 in terms of the sales presentation.
16 Q Did you make any misleading statements regarding the
17 inclusion of famous people to your company?
18 A We had sent --
19 MR. NEVILLE: Objection.
20 THE COURT: What ground?
21 MR. NEVILLE: We. Let him speak for himself,
22 your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Overruled. 24 You may proceed. 25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4387 Watstein-direct/White
1 We had sent out -- would you repeat the question,
2 please?
3 Q Did you make any misleading statements regarding the
4 involvement of famous people with your company?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 We had sent out memberships pre qualified to
7 famous peop
le such as Lee Iacoca and Donald Trump, when in
8 fact they did not go through the entire interview people
9 and were just put in the book to create a higher level of
10 prestige.
11 Q Did you make any misleading statements regarding
12 where your directories were available?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q What did you say?
15 A We had indicated that directories were available in
16 many libraries, when in fact they were only involved in a
17 handful of libraries only and we sent those directories to
18 the libraries without payment itself, and there were
19 probably no more than five or ten libraries involved.
20 Q Why did you send those directories to those
21 libraries?
22 A I had felt it would create a higher level of prestige
23 to people to indicate that the books were in the library 24 of Congress, Wharton's Library, Harvard Library, etcetera. 25 Q Now, d
id your company ever solicit nominations from
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4388 Watstein-direct/White
1 its existing members?
2 A For a brief period of time.
3 Q And why was that done?
4 A It was our intention to create additional leads to
5 become members and thus reduce the cost in advertising and
6 lead creation.
7 Q Explain what you mean by that?
8 A For a brief period of time we asked the sales force
9 to ask each member for nominations and recommendations for
10 those individuals who might be included in our Who's Who
11 directory. We incented the sales force by paying them a
12 dollar a piece for such nominations. It was the intention
13 of taking those nominations and to call those individuals
14 on the phone indicating they were in fact nominated by
15 another member. We discontinued the practice as it was
16 counterproductive.
17 Q Now, have you ever heard of Marquis Who's Who?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Did you make any misleading statements to your
20 customers regarding Marquis Who's Who publications?
21 A I don't think I can answer that question with a yes
22 or no, Mr. White.
23 Q Can you explain what, if any, statements you made 24 with regard to Marquis Who's Who? 25 A By using the name "Who's Who" we attempted to trade
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4389 Watstein-direct/White
1 on a name that had some value in --
2 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
3 THE COURT: Overruled.
4 A By using the name "Who's Who" we attempted to trade
5 on a name that I felt had prestige in the minds of
6 individuals who were unfamiliar that there were more than
7 one Who's Who. However our sales force were instructed
8 should
anyone say, are you the same as Marquis Who's Who,
9 or are you Marquis Who's Who, we would say no, we are not,
10 we are either better, bigger or more prestigious, and no
11 one would have intentionally misled people as it relates
12 to Marquis Who's Who.
13 Q Now, can you tell us approximately what were the
14 total sales of your company?
15 A Approximately over its four-year period,
16 approximately 14 million dollars.
17 Q Now, when customer's purchased directories or other
18 items from your companies did your company deliver them?
19 A Substantially, yes.
20 Q Explain what you mean?
21 A In our initial publication in 1988 through 1989, we
22 had contracted the fulfillment function out to another
23 company instead of doing it ourselves. And during that 24 period substantially everything we did was delivered on 25 time, on a timely basis.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4390 Watstein-direct/White
1 In 1989 we brought that function in-house in the
2 company and experienced a computer failure which caused a
3 delay and a loss of data. Over time we were able to
4 submit the greater bulk of all bookings out, albeit on a
5 delinquent basis.
6 Q During the time period when you were -- when you had
7 lost data, did you or the company make any misleading
8 statements to customers about delivery of their product?
9 A I think we probably misstated the time in which it
10 would take us to solve the problem. It also came to my
11 attention that some of the employees stated that there was
12 a strike at the company, or the company was on vacation,
13 when in fact it was not a truthful statement, those were
14 not truthful statements.
15 Q Did your company receive requests for ref
unds from
16 customers?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Now, did you make any misleading statements to
19 customers who asked for refunds?
20 A Yes, I believe we did, sir.
21 Q What did you say?
22 A Well, in the initial stages when we were not
23 experiencing financial difficulty, we followed a fairly 24 standard but aggressive program to try to delay or defer 25 refunds by just using salesmanship. As we experienced a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4391 Watstein-direct/White
1 computer problem and began to have financial difficulties
2 there were a number of misrepresentations in my judgment,
3 including the fact that the individual's cover was already
4 printed with their name on it, the fact that their plate
5 or plaque was already produced, and other such
6 misrepresentations.
7 Q The misrepresentations abou
t the book, cover and
8 plaque, how was it used to not give a refund?
9 A By indicating the product was in fact partially
10 fulfilled already, which in fact was not the case.
11 Q Did there come a time that postal inspectors executed
12 a search warrant at your office and home?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Can you tell us approximately when that was?
15 A The first search warrant was in June of 1990, and
16 that was a search of the premises in Great Neck, New
17 York. The second search warrants were in July of 1991,
18 which was for our premises in Queens, New York. We had
19 moved to Queens, New York, and my home that was located in
20 the North Shore Towers.
21 The third report was in August of 1991, at a home
22 I was building in Mill Neck, M I L L N E C K, New York.
23 Q Did there come a time that you were arrested? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q When were you arre
sted?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4392 Watstein-direct/White
1 A May of 1992.
2 Q And what were you arrested for?
3 A Mail fraud.
4 Q Was your wife arrested?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And when was that?
7 A In May of 1992.
8 Q Were any of your employees arrested?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q How many of them?
11 A Approximately 25.
12 Q Do you know a man named Martin Gross?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Who is Martin Gross?
15 A An employee of my company.
16 Q Was Mr. Gross arrested at that time?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Now, did you plead guilty to any crimes?
19 A Yes.
20 Q When did you plead guilty?
21 A In March of 1993.
22 Q Tell us how many charges you pled guilty to?
23 A Six. 24 Q What did you plead guilty to? 25 A I pled guilty to mail fraud, mail fr
aud conspiracy,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4393 Watstein-direct/White
1 income tax evasion and also the filing of false receipts
2 on a claim on a limousine which was titled to my wife, as
3 well as making improper permit for a not for profit
4 company called American Sales and Marketing Institute.
5 Q Taking it one by one, in connection with your guilty
6 plea to mail fraud, tell us what you did that was
7 fraudulent?
8 A We indicated in our mailing campaigns that people
9 were nominated --
10 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 Members of the jury, I am now instructing you
13 that the fact that this witness pleaded guilty to mail
14 fraud has no bearing on the facts in this case, or any of
15 the charges against the defendants in this case. This is
16 a personal decision that this witness
came to on his own.
17 And you cannot in any way infer because he pled guilty to
18 mail fraud that that is in any way carrying over to any of
19 the defendants in this case, even if it is similar acts.
20 Especially if it is similar acts can you not infer
21 anything as a result of that. As I said, that was a
22 personal decision that this defendant came to. It has no
23 bearing on the facts in this case, except as to his 24 credibility. That you can take the conviction, which is a 25 plea, into account, as far as his credibility is
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4394 Watstein-direct/White
1 concerned.
2 Q Now, can you describe to us what it is you did that
3 resulted in your guilty plea to tax evasion?
4 A I had placed assets in my wife's name in order to
5 avoid payments to the Internal Revenue Service. I owed
6 m
oney to the Internal Revenue Service and in order to
7 avoid the collection of that obligation, I placed assets
8 in my wife's name.
9 Q In connection with that effort did you create or
10 submit any false documents?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q What documents did you create or submit?
13 A I created documents, backdated my wife's resignation
14 from that company when in fact there was no such
15 resignation.
16 Q You said you also pled guilty to something about
17 false receipts?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Tell us what that was about?
20 A There was a break in in a limousine owned by me and
21 titled to my wife. And in the filing of the insurance
22 claim I created receipts that did not exist, and to a
23 greater extent duplicated receipts without indicating that 24 they were in fact duplicate receipts. 25 Q And to whom were these documents submitted?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4395 Watstein-direct/White
1 A To an insurance company who carried the policy.
2 Q Was that in support of a claim you were making under
3 the policy?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And the final charge you pled guilty to, can you tell
6 us what that involved?
7 A I had caused to be incorporated a company called
8 American Sales and Marketing Institute. And we had
9 applied for a not for profit permit which would reduce the
10 cost of the mailing. Although we did initially
11 incorporate that company, we didn't complete the balance
12 of the documentation. And it was determined that in fact
13 it was not a not for profit company.
14 Q And did you make any false statements to the Postal
15 Service in connection with that?
16 A The application required us to indicate that American
17 Sales and
Marketing Institute, was a not for profit
18 company, when in fact it was not fully qualified as a not
19 for profit company.
20 Q Now, the six charges or six crimes you described, did
21 you commit those crimes that you pled guilty to?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q Now, did your wife also plead guilty? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q What did she plead guilty to?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4396 Watstein-direct/White
1 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 Q Now, at the time you pleaded guilty, did you have an
4 estimate as to what the sentence you faced was?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q What was that?
7 A 72 to 87 months.
8 Q At the time you pleaded guilty, did you enter into an
9 agreement with the government?
10 A I entered the guilty plea prior -- agreement prior to
11 my guilty plea, sir.
12 Q What did you agree to do under that agreement?
13 A I agreed to cooperate with the U.S. Government in the
14 investigation of any crimes known to me, or any crimes
15 that the government might ask me to assist them with.
16 Q What is your understanding of what the government
17 agreed to do under this agreement?
18 A The government agreed that if I completed my
19 responsibilities appropriately they would submit a letter
20 to Judge Mishler, which I believe is called a 5K letter,
21 indicating that based on my cooperation he would have the
22 option of a downward departure in my sentencing.
23 Q Can you explain to what your understanding of a 24 downward departure was. 25 A That in fact, instead of facing a longer period of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4397 Watstein-direct/White
1 jail time, I could face lesser jail
time or possibly no
2 jail time.
3 Q At the time of your guilty plea did the government
4 make any promise to you as to what sentence you would
5 receive?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Did you and your wife agree to do anything else in
8 connection with your guilty plea?
9 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
10 THE COURT: What grounds?
11 MR. SCHOER: He never said that his wife entered
12 into any sort of cooperation agreement.
13 THE COURT: Sustained.
14 Q Did you or your family do anything else in connection
15 with your guilty plea?
16 A You are referring to the cooperation agreement?
17 Q No.
18 Did you or anyone in your family forfeit any
19 property?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Tell us what property you forfeited?
22 A As part of the agreement with the government, we
23 forfeited a piece of land in Mill Neck, New York, a bank 24 acco
unt in my son's name, and the proceeds from an 25 insurance claim which approximated slightly less than one
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4398 Watstein-direct/White
1 million dollars.
2 Q The total of those things?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Now, did you subsequently cooperate with the
5 government?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Tell us in summary what you did?
8 A Over a period of three years I was involved in
9 numerous matters assisting the U.S. Government, which
10 resulted in a number of investigations, a number of --
11 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 A -- a number of investigations, a number of
14 indictments, a number of arrests, a number of convictions,
15 and a number of parties being exonerated as there was not
16 sufficient evidence to pursue the evidence against them.
17 MR. SCHO
ER: Objection.
18 THE COURT: Overruled.
19 Q Have you already been sentenced?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Tell us when you were sentenced?
22 A In August of 1995.
23 Q At your sentencing did the government advise the 24 judge of your cooperation? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4399 Watstein-direct/White
1 Q Tell us what sentence you received?
2 A The sentence I received was six months of house
3 arrest, probation for three years, and a fine of $50,000
4 that was payable over 20 months.
5 Q Were you ordered to make restitution to the victims
6 of your crimes?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q Did you make any efforts to make restitution to the
9 victims of your crimes?
10 A Yes, I reimbursed voluntarily each and every victim
11 who filed a claim with the better business bureau here on
12 Long Island.
13 Q Did the judge impose any special condition of your
14 probation?
15 A That I continue to cooperate with the U.S.
16 Government, and that I, of course, would not violate any
17 other laws in my probation period.
18 Q Are you still on probation?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q When does your probation end?
21 A August of 1998.
22 Q Has the government promised you any benefit in
23 connection with your testimony here today? 24 A None whatsoever. 25 Q What is your understanding of what could happen to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4400 Watstein-direct/White
1 you if you were untruthful in your testimony at this
2 trial?
3 A My probation could be revoked and I could be
4 sentenced to the original jail term that is possible under
5 the guidelines.
6 Q Now, have you ever met a m
an named Bruce Gordon?
7 A Not person to person, no.
8 Q Have you ever spoken to Bruce Gordon on the
9 telephone?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Approximately when was that?
12 A In the Spring of 1990, I believe.
13 Q Now, was your Who's Who business in operation at this
14 time?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Can you explain the circumstances under which you had
17 this telephone conversation with Mr. Gordon.
18 A It was brought to my attention there was a
19 competitive Who's Who opened up in Long Island, on Long
20 Island, and they hired one of my current salespeople. His
21 name is Jim, I can't spell his last name, but phonetically
22 it is Kenino.
23 I was given the phone number of that company to 24 call that company. 25 In fact, I called the company and the phone was
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4401
Watstein-direct/White
1 answered Who's Who Worldwide. I put the phone down
2 immediately to think of what I would do next.
3 A few moments later I called back and asking for
4 the president of the company. I was put through to an
5 individual who identified himself as Bruce Gordon.
6 I indicated that it came to my attention that he
7 had taken my concept, and was creating a competitive Who's
8 Who, and he was employing a fellow named Jim Kenino, who
9 was my salesperson.
10 In that conversation Mr. Gordon denied that being
11 the case. He indicated he was involved in the sale of
12 vitamins and computers. Mr. Kenino had experience in that
13 field and was selling vitamins, and he, Mr. Gordon, had a
14 great level of experience in telemarketing, and had no
15 idea what I was talking about. It was a relatively short
16 three or four minute conversation, which ende
d on that
17 basis.
18 Approximately a -- I am sorry.
19 Q Did you then have a subsequent conversation with
20 Mr. Gordon?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Tell us about that.
23 A Approximately 30 minutes later it dawned on me that I 24 was naive, that the phone was answered twice, Who's Who 25 Worldwide, and in fact, it is possible that Mr. Gordon was
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4402 Watstein-direct/White
1 not being candid on the phone with me.
2 I called back again asking for Mr. Gordon. And
3 the same individual who identified himself as Bruce Gordon
4 came to the phone. In this conversation he now admitted
5 that he had created a competitive Who's Who to my
6 company. He stated in fact that it was a big world out
7 there; that I had no ability to forestall him from using
8 the term "Who's Who."
9 I then indicated it came to my attention he had
10 taken my script and materials I had copyrighted. He
11 indicated it was his option to do and I would have no
12 action against him. In fact, if I were to bring an action
13 against him only the lawyers would get rich.
14 Mr. Gordon then stated that in fact, he operated
15 in a different style than I did, and he would be more
16 successful than I was. His style was to closely monitor
17 the salespeople, to literally walk up and down the
18 telemarketing room. And he was told that my style was to
19 do consulting, stay in the background and hire other
20 salespeople, a sales force.
21 He finally indicated his strategy of dealing with
22 salespeople who were difficult, who gave him a hard time,
23 was to state that they had stolen property from him and 24 have them arrested, and, therefore, no one would, quote, 25 clos
e quote, investigate Bruce Gordon.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4403 Watstein-direct/White
1 I indicated I would seek out an attorney to sue
2 him. He indicated it would not be fruitful.
3 That was the last conversation we had.
4 Q Let me draw your attention to January of 1993.
5 At that time had you pleaded guilty yet?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Had you entered into a cooperation agreement with the
8 government by that time?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Now, was your business still operating at that point
11 in January of 1993?
12 A You are referring to Who's Who?
13 Q Yes.
14 A No, sir.
15 Q Now, did you assist postal inspectors in connection
16 with an investigation of any Who's Who companies around
17 that time, January of '93?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Tell us what you did as part of your cooperation?
20 A As part of my cooperation agreement with the approval
21 of Postal Inspector Leonard, L E O N A R D, advertisements
22 were placed in Newsday and the New York Times indicating
23 that a new Who's Who was being formed, and we were seeking 24 experienced Who's Who salespeople. One of the 25 advertisements indicated that a former individual involved
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4404 Watstein-direct/White
1 in Who's Who was setting up the company.
2 Respondents to the advertisements called my toll
3 free number, and spoke to in this case, my wife, who would
4 obtain information as to the background of the
5 individuals.
6 Subsequently she arranged appointments for me to
7 interview these individuals at the Garden City Hotel in
8 Garden City, Long Island. And those interviews were in
9 fact held on two separate occ
asions at the Garden City
10 Hotel.
11 Q Now, at this time was your arrest public?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q At this time was your cooperation public?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q Now, did you received any instructions from the
16 postal inspectors as to how to conduct these interviews?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q What instructions did you receive?
19 A Basically be honest and be accurate. That was pretty
20 much the limit of the instructions.
21 Q Now, in connection with this operation, did you meet
22 a man named Frank Martin?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And was this meeting with Frank Martin recorded? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4405 Watstein-direct/White
1 Q Can you tell us how it was recorded?
2 A Inspector Leonard gave me a recording device that was
3 put into an eyeglass case. The eyeglass
case was put on
4 to the conference table in which the interviews were held.
5 Q Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1379-A, which is
6 not in evidence, but a transcript of tape number 1379,
7 which is in evidence.
8 (Handed to the witness.)
9 Q Now, have you reviewed that transcript prior to
10 today?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What is it?
13 A A transcript of the conversation that I had with
14 Frank Martin at the Garden City Hotel on Long Island.
15 THE COURT: What was the date of that
16 conversation?
17 THE WITNESS: January 20th, 1993.
18 Q Now, let me draw your attention to April of 1993.
19 Were you asked to do anything by postal
20 inspectors at that time?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q What were you asked to do then?
23 A I was asked to place phone calls to a company known 24 as Oxford Who's Who also domiciled in Long Island, and a
25 phone call to Who's Who Worldwide. With the assistance of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4406 Watstein-direct/White
1 Officer Leonard, those two conversations were recorded.
2 Q What were you asked to do in those telephone
3 conversations -- well, what were you asked to do in the
4 telephone conversation to Who's Who Worldwide?
5 A I was asked to pose as an applicant to Who's Who
6 Worldwide and to engage in a conversation with the sales
7 representative so as to determine the nature of the sales
8 presentation.
9 Q And did you do that?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And was this telephone conversation recorded?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Now, let me direct your attention to the summer of
14 1994.
15 Were you asked to do anything by postal
16 inspectors at that time?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q What were you
asked to do then?
19 A Inspector Biegelman, I believe it is -- do you have
20 the spelling of that, sir -- asked me to make some phone
21 calls to Who's Who Worldwide, again indicating that I was
22 an applicant to Who's Who Worldwide, and to determine the
23 nature of the sales presentation. 24 Inspector Biegelman supplied me with a letter of 25 solicitation from a person alleging to be Cathy Ross,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4407 Watstein-direct/White
1 R O S S, indicating that the party receiving that letter
2 had in fact been nominated, and I was to indicate that I
3 had received that letter, and had sent in my ballot or
4 application, and not received a call back as of yet.
5 Q Now, when you were asked to do this by the postal
6 inspectors, were you told anything else regarding the
7 government's investigation?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q Did you ever make calls to Sterling Who's Who?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Can you tell us combined how many phone calls you
12 made to Who's Who Worldwide and Sterling?
13 A A total of 15 phone calls altogether.
14 Q The ones in 1994, for how long did those calls
15 stretch?
16 A Until March of 1995.
17 Q Now, in those conversations how did you identify
18 yourself?
19 A I identified myself with various names and various
20 professions associated with those names.
21 Q Let's start with the names. Were those real names?
22 A No, sir, they were not, with the exception of one
23 name. 24 Q And were they -- what occupations did you assume? 25 A I assumed a broad array of occupations. Initially I
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4408 Watstein-direct/White
1 assumed the occupation of a
vice president at a couple of
2 companies. And then I assumed the occupation of a
3 beautician, gas station operator, a delicatessen operator,
4 a third grade teacher, a salesperson, a night clerk at a
5 motel, and various other professions.
6 Q Now, at any point after you began to make the calls,
7 did you receive any instructions from Inspector Biegelman
8 regarding what occupations you should assume?
9 A Somewhere in the first quarter or so of my calls,
10 Inspector Biegelman suggested that I choose an occupation