1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, : CR 96 1016(S-1) 4 v. : U.S. Courthouse 5 Uniondale, New York BRUCE W. GORDON, WHO'S WHO 6 WORLD WIDE REGISTRY, INC., : STERLING WHO'S WHO, INC., 7 TARA GARBOSKI, ORAL FRANK : OSMAN, LAURA WEITZ, ANNETTE 8 HALEY, SCOTT MICHAELSON, : and MARTIN 9 REFFSIN, : TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL 10 Defendants. :February 19, 1998 11 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 9:35 o'clock a.m.
12 BEFORE:
13 HONORABLE ARTHUR D. SPATT, U.S.D.J. and a jury 14 APPEARANCES: 15 For the Government: ZACHARY W. CARTER 16 United States Attorney One Pierrepont Plaza 17 Brooklyn, New York 11201 By: RONALD G. WHITE, ESQ. 18 CECIL SCOTT, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorneys 19 For the Defendants: NORM
AN TRABULUS, ESQ. 20 For Bruce W. Gordon 170 Old Country Road, Suite 600 21 Mineola, New York 11501
22 EDWARD P. JENKS, ESQ. For Who's Who Worldwide 23 Registry, Inc. and Sterling Who's, Who, Inc. 24 332 Willis Avenue Mineola, New York 11501 25 (cont'd)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4829
1 APPEARANCES (cont'd):
2 GARY SCHOER, ESQ. For Tara Garboski 3 6800 Jericho Turnpike Syosset, New York 11791 4 ALAN M. NELSON, ESQ. 5 For Oral Frank Osman 3000 Marcus Avenue 6 Lake Success, New York 11042
7 WINSTON LEE, ESQ. For Laura Weitz 8 319 Broadway New York, New York 10007 9 MARTIN GEDULDIG, ESQ. 10 For Annette Haley 400 South Oyster Bay Road 11 Hicksville, New York 11801
12 JAMES C. NEVILLE, ESQ. For Scott Michaelson 13 225 Broadway New York, New York 10007 14 THOMAS F.X. DUNN, ESQ. 15 For Mr Shortcuts, 150 Nassau Street 16 New York, New York 10038
17 JOHN S. WALLENSTEIN, ESQ. For Martin Reffsin 18 215 Hilton Avenue Hempstead, New York 11551 19
20 Court Reporter: HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR United States District Court 21 Two Uniondale Avenue Uniondale, New York 11553 22 (516) 485-6558
23 Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript 24 produced by Computer-Assisted Transcription 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4830
1 M O R N I N G S E S S I O N
2
3 (Whereupon, the following takes place in the
4 absence of the jury.)
5 THE COURT: Apropos, I was requested late
6 yesterday about Friday. I will endeavor not to hold court
7 on Friday after tomorrow. I have already told the jury
8 about tomorrow. I will try to avoid Fridays in the
9 future.
10 MR. LEE: Thank you.
11 MR. SCHOER: Thank you very much.
12 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Bring in the jury, please.
14 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
15 courtroom.)
16 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.
17 Please be seated. I want to compliment you
18 again, I know you were here at 20 after 9:00 and maybe
19 before that. I saw jurors coming in very early in the
20 morning. Thank you very much.
21 I am sorry for delaying the matter, I had several
22 other matters, including a complex civil case I am trying
23 to unravel. I have not succeeded yet, but I am still 24 delaying. 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4831
1 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N,
2 called as a witness, having been previously
3 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
4 follows:
5
6 THE COURT: Mr. Steven Watstein, you are
7 previously sworn and still under oath. You understand
8 that?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10
11 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)
12 BY MR. NELSON:
13 Q I believe we left off yesterday at the conclusion of
14 the recording that was made on January 20th, 1993. Do you
15 recall that?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And am I correct that clearly this was viewed as
18 Mr. Martin being a job interview; is that correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And would I be correct in stating that you led
21 Mr. Martin on to believe that he might be coming to work
22 for you at some point in time by the time the interview
23 concluded? 24 A Could you rephrase the question, sir? 25 Q At the conclusion of the interview, although it is
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4832 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 not on the tape, I assume you told him you would be
2 getting back to him as to whether or not you presented him
3 with a job offer?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Following this interview with Mr. Martin, did you
8 have any further contact?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q You did, however, continue to cooperate with the
11 postal inspectors?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Am I correct in January of 1993, in addition to
14 interviewing Mr. Martin, and I believe one other former
15 employee of Who's Who Worldwide, you interviewed and
16 recorded a number of former employees of Oxford Who's Who;
17 is that correct?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q And am I correct in April of 1993 you made numerous
20 telephone calls into Oxford Who's Who, posing as a
21 customer, and recording the employees, the salespeople of
22 Oxford Who's Who?
23
A No, sir, that's not accurate as you phrased it. 24 Q Did you make -- did you make recordings of employees 25 of Oxford Who's Who in April of 1993?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4833 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A I made a singular call, sir.
2 Q I am not speaking of Who's Who Worldwide.
3 A I understand.
4 Q Just Oxford?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And you made one call?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And did you make any other recordings of employees of
9 Oxford Who's Who other than telephone calls in April of
10 1993?
11 A You are referring to me personally?
12 Q You personally.
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Did you go to work for Oxford Who's Who?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q Did you have any meetings with employees that weren't
17 recorded of Oxford Who's Who?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q Did you continue to participate in t
he investigation
20 of Oxford Who's Who in April of 1993?
21 A To a limited extent, yes.
22 Q Am I correct that in July of 1993, a few months after
23 the recording that was made to Oxford Who's Who, Oxford 24 Who's Who was shut down and arrests were made of various 25 employees of Oxford Who's Who?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4834 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A That's my understanding, yes, sir.
2 Q Am I correct that with respect to Who's Who
3 Worldwide, there were no arrests made during the summer,
4 July of 1993?
5 A That's correct, that is my understanding, yes, sir.
6 Q In fact, am I correct as it relates to the defendants
7 sitting here on trial, none of those individuals were
8 arrested until March of 1995, or more than two years after
9 this interview with Frank Martin which had been conducted
10 on Ja
nuary 20th, 1993?
11 A That is correct, to the best of my knowledge, yes,
12 sir.
13 Q Now, am I correct that other than making a single
14 recording of a telephone conversation where you called
15 into Who's Who Worldwide in April of 1993 --
16 THE COURT: You are talking about Oxford?
17 MR. NELSON: No. This is Who's Who Worldwide,
18 your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. NELSON: I will withdraw the question and
21 rephrase it.
22 THE COURT: No. My error. I thought you were
23 still talking about Oxford. 24 Q Am I correct that in April of 1993, at the same time 25 that you made a telephone call into Oxford Who's Who, you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4835 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 also made a singular telephone call into Who's Who
2 Worldwide posing as a customer?
3 A That is correct.
4 Q And other than making that one telephone call into
5 Who's Who Worldwide in April of 1993, am I correct that
6 between January of 1993, where you recorded Mr. Martin,
7 and approximately the late spring, early summer of 1994,
8 you did not continue to participate in an ongoing
9 investigation into Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
10 A I believe it was August of '94. That's correct, sir.
11 Q So, for approximately an 18 month period of time you
12 did not participate in any ongoing investigation that was
13 taking place as it related to Who's Who Worldwide; is that
14 correct?
15 A I believe that --
16 Q I am asking if you participated.
17 A Yes.
18 Q Not if an investigation was going on, just if you
19 participated.
20 A I believe there might have been a phone conversation
21 or two that might have dealt with that subject
22 peripherally
. If that means did not participate, then I
23 did not participate. 24 Q And those phone conferences would have been you 25 speaking with Inspector Biegelman?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4836 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A Or Inspector Leonard.
2 Q However during that 18 month period of time or 24
3 month period of time from January of 1993, to
4 approximately August of 1994, am I correct that you did
5 participate in numerous other investigations?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q All right.
8 In fact, am I correct that you were recruited or
9 volunteered, I am not sure how it worked out but in the
10 investigation of a Robert Rosenfeld?
11 A Yes, sir. I was recruited.
12 Q Was that by the postal authorities or other agency?
13 A Postal.
14 Q Who was the inspector handling that investigation?
15 A Inspector
Biegelman.
16 Q In fact, you recorded various seminars conducted by
17 principals of that company?
18 A Amongst other things, yes.
19 Q You recorded salespeople of Mr. Rosenfeld?
20 A I don't know if salespeople were recorded, as much as
21 general conversations.
22 Q And that is under the instruction and supervision of
23 Inspector Biegelman? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q And after you worked on that investigation, am I
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4837 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 correct, that you went back down to Florida in 1993, and
2 posed as a consultant to a company that was under
3 investigation by the Department of Labor; is that correct?
4 A I can't answer that question yes or no the way you
5 phrased it, sir.
6 Q Well, did you go -- did you pose as a consultant for
7 a company under investigation by
the Department of Labor
8 in Florida?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay.
11 And that was in 1993?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Is that correct?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Okay.
16 And you provided information to the Department of
17 Labor in an investigation that they were conducting in
18 Florida with respect to that company; is that correct?
19 A That is correct.
20 Q All right.
21 Am I correct that there was nobody criminally
22 charged as a result of that investigation?
23 A That is correct, to the best of my knowledge. 24 Q And while you were in Florida, you also assisted the 25 criminal fraud division of the Internal Revenue Service in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4838 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 a tax investigation of other individuals; is that correct?
2 A That is correct.
3 Q And with respect
to that investigation, nobody was
4 criminally charged either; is that correct?
5 A I believe that's true as of the date of Mr. Marvin's
6 letter. It may not be true today.
7 Q Am I correct that while you were in Florida, you also
8 assisted the postal authorities, posing as a consultant
9 for a number of different Florida based companies?
10 A That's accurate.
11 Q And based upon those different investigations, am I
12 correct that there were no arrests in those investigations
13 either; is that right?
14 A Not that I am aware of.
15 Q Now, am I correct that there came a period of time
16 while you were in Florida, that you traveled from Florida
17 to New Jersey, to help the FBI in an investigation they
18 were conduct in -- conducting in New Jersey?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And you actually traveled from Florida at your own
21 expense to record that mee
ting?
22 A No, not quite accurate.
23 Q You traveled from Florida at your own expense to 24 record the meeting; is that right? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4839 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q You made recordings before the meeting, but not
2 actually while you were in attendance at the meetings; is
3 that correct?
4 A I actually made recordings at the meeting, but not at
5 the party.
6 Q Okay.
7 Would I be correct in stating that at least from
8 your position there was no expense that was too great in
9 order to assist the government, taking money out of your
10 own pocket in order to provide cooperation?
11 A I can't answer the question with a yes or no, sir.
12 Q You did pay your own expense to travel from Florida
13 to New Jersey; is that right?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q An
d that was in order to assist in the investigation
16 that was taking place in New Jersey; is that right?
17 A And I requested no reimbursement; that's correct,
18 sir.
19 Q And it was your hope that based upon that
20 investigation there would be a successful conclusion so
21 that information could be included in the letter submitted
22 to Judge Mishler, by Assistant United States Attorney Seth
23 Marvin; is that correct? 24 A That's not accurate, no. 25 Q You were hoping Mr. Marvin would tell Judge Mishler
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4840 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 about what you did to help the government; is that right?
2 A In terms of assistance, yes, sir.
3 Q And would I be correct in stating that you told us
4 yesterday and also the day before when Mr. Jenks was
5 speaking to you, that this letter that was goin
g to be
6 submitted by Mr. Marvin, that letter was worth a million
7 dollars to you; is that right?
8 A That's the phraseology Mr. Jenks used and I had
9 concurred with it, yes.
10 Q Now, in addition to those investigations, am I
11 correct that you also secretly recorded calls and meetings
12 with the target of an advertising fraud investigation in
13 New York in 1994?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q And nobody was arrested as part of that investigation
16 either; is that right?
17 A They were exonerated, yes, sir.
18 Q And you also made numerous recordings posing as a
19 customer to two other completely unrelated Who's Who
20 investigations, one in the south and another one in New
21 York, not Oxford, not Who's Who Worldwide but some third
22 entity; is that correct?
23 A Could you repeat the question, please, sir? 24 Q Okay. 25 Let me
break it down for you.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4841 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 You assisted the government by making recordings
2 posing as a customer into a number of different Who's Who
3 organizations; is that correct?
4 A No, it is not accurate, sir.
5 Q Did you make telephone calls to a Who's Who
6 organization operating in the southern part of the United
7 States at any point in time?
8 A I don't believe so. It was not a completed call at
9 least.
10 Q Did you attempt to assist in an investigation into
11 the were -- a Who's Who organization in the southern part
12 of the United States?
13 A I am not sure. I believe the attempt was, but we
14 didn't actually make the telephone call.
15 Q It is in Florida?
16 A No.
17 Q What state was it?
18 A It would have been a call from the pos
t office in
19 Hicksville in 1993. To the best of my recollection either
20 we did not make contact with the individual, or the call
21 was not made. But there was no recording of it.
22 Q I would like to show you 3500-22-I, which is the
23 letter written by Mr. Marvin to Judge Mishler in your 24 behalf, and I would like to address your attention to 25 paragraph 9 of that letter.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4842 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Does a review of that paragraph refresh your
2 recollection that you made several recorded calls to an
3 international Who's Who company in the south, which was
4 the subject of a pending investigation?
5 (Handed to the witness.)
6 A I don't believe that's accurate. But my memory could
7 be faulty in that matter.
8 Q I would like to direct your attention to paragraph 8
9 of
the letter, and I would like you to read that paragraph
10 and see if that refreshes your recollection.
11 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
12 proceedings.)
13 Q Does that paragraph refresh your recollection that
14 you made numerous recorded calls to a bogus Who's Who
15 company on Long Island, which is the subject of a pending
16 investigation, which would have been pending as of July
17 21st, 1995?
18 A I believe that I made the phone calls, but they were
19 not consummated. I am not sure if they were recorded or
20 not.
21 Q So, I would be correct in stating that in addition to
22 Oxford Who's Who and Who's Who Worldwide, you attempted to
23 assist in the investigation of two other completely 24 unrelated Who's Who type organizations, during the course 25 of your cooperation; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL
COURT REPORTER 4843 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A That's an accurate statement, yes, sir.
2 Q At least as of the date of that letter, no one was
3 charged in either of those two investigations; is that
4 correct?
5 A That's my understanding, correct, sir.
6 Q In summary, am I correct in stating between 1993 and
7 1995 you literally made cooperation with federal
8 authorities, against virtually everyone and anyone, a
9 full-time job?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q And you were certainly spending a good time of
12 your -- part of your time doing this?
13 A A substantial amount of time would be accurate.
14 Q In fact, you expended your own funds to participate
15 in these investigations; is that correct?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q When the authorities called you to participate, you
18 didn't only jump, you asked how high; is that correct?
19 A I
can't phrase it colloquially as you phrased it.
20 But it was an important part of my life, certainly.
21 Q Am I correct in stating that in each of these
22 investigations, it was with the hope that that cooperation
23 information would be included in one of the 13 separated 24 enumerated paragraphs that was set forth in the letter 25 prepared by Seth Marvin to Judge Mishler outlining and
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4844 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 detailing your cooperation; is that right?
2 A As you phrased it, absolutely correct, yes, you were.
3 Q And you were hoping the letter would convince Judge
4 Mishler not to give you the 70 months mandatory jail time
5 you were looking at?
6 A That is correct, sir.
7 Q You knew the more information you gave the government
8 about other people, the more the government could write
9 the judge about; is that right?
10 A The proper phrase is assistance, not information.
11 Q The more lives you could ruin, the better chance you
12 had of saving your own neck; is that right?
13 MR. WHITE: Objection.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 MR. NELSON: I will withdraw the question.
16 Q Now, am I correct that throughout this two-year
17 period of time, from 1993 to 1995, you maintained contact
18 with Inspector Biegelman on a fairly regular basis?
19 A Give me the dates again, sir?
20 Q From '93 to '95?
21 A Not accurate.
22 Q From '93 to August of '94?
23 A No, sir. 24 Q And did you continue to remain in contact with 25 Inspector Biegelman from the time you entered your
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4845 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 cooperation agreement until sometime around August of
2 1994, possibly on an infrequent basis, but you maintained
3 contact with him?
4 A Contact for a period of time was largely with
5 Inspector Leonard, as he took over for Inspector
6 Biegelman.
7 Q When Inspector Leonard was no longer in the picture,
8 you reached out to Biegelman?
9 A Actually Mr. Biegelman reached out for me, yes, sir.
10 Q But you maintained contact?
11 A During that period, yes, sir.
12 Q And am I correct that in approximately June or July
13 of 1994, you contacted Inspector Biegelman and advised him
14 a judgment had been entered against Who's Who Worldwide in
15 a lawsuit brought against it by Reed Elsevir?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And you contacted him in the hope that you could now
18 revive the dormant investigation against Who's Who
19 Worldwide; isn't that right, sir?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Well, this contact with
Biegelman was some 18 months
22 after your meeting with Frank Martin at the hotel; is that
23 correct? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q And that was some 14 months after the one call you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4846 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 had made into Who's Who Worldwide in April of 1993; is
2 that correct?
3 A That is correct.
4 Q And during that 14 month period of time to your
5 knowledge, there was no active investigation taking place
6 of Who's Who Worldwide by the postal authorities; isn't
7 that correct, sir?
8 A No, sir, it is not.
9 Q Well, you had absolutely no role in the
10 investigation; isn't that right, sir?
11 A That is correct.
12 Q All right.
13 Now, once you made this call to Inspector
14 Biegelman during the summer of 1994, am I correct that
15 very shortly af
ter that call was made you started working
16 with him again; isn't that right?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Well, do you recall when you contacted Inspector
19 Biegelman to tell him about the decision in the Reed case?
20 A I believe it was the late spring or early summer of
21 1994.
22 Q It was June of 1994?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q Right? 25 A Correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4847 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q Am I correct that starting in August of 1994, you
2 started making recordings into Who's Who Worldwide at the
3 request of Inspector Biegelman; is that right?
4 A Yes, sir. And that's two months apart, yes, sir.
5 Q As of August of 1994, you had not yet been sentenced
6 for the six felonies you pled guilty to back in March of
7 1993; is that right?
8 A That is correct.
9 Q In fact, you
r sentence had been adjourned on a number
10 of occasions; is that right?
11 A Yes, at the request of the government, yes, sir.
12 Q And that was to facilitate your continuing
13 cooperation; is that right?
14 A Yes, uh-huh.
15 Q You wanted to make sure the judge heard about all the
16 investigations you participated in before you were
17 sentenced; is that right?
18 A That was my motivation, yes, sir.
19 Q In fact, you weren't sentenced until July of 1995; is
20 that right?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q Coincidentally, that was four months after the arrest
23 of all the defendants in this case; isn't that right, sir? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q Now, am I correct that shortly after you were
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4848 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 advised -- you advised Inspector Biegelman of the Reed
2 decision in Who's Who, he asked you to start making
3 recordings of Who's Who Worldwide employees; is that
4 right?
5 A Two full months later, yes, sir.
6 Q And at that time you started posing as a customer; is
7 that right? You would call in posing as a customer?
8 A A potential customer, yes, sir.
9 Q You made the 61 recordings, correct?
10 A 60.
11 Q At any time during these recordings, did you ever
12 speak with Frank Martin?
13 A Not to my recollection, no.
14 Q And following your cooperation at the completion of
15 this investigation and the remaining investigations, am I
16 correct that there eventually came a day of reckoning when
17 you indeed were sentenced by Judge Mishler for the various
18 crimes which you committed?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And that was the fraudulent operation of your
21 business where you defrauded tens
of thousands of
22 customers; is that correct?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And you are defrauding the Internal Revenue Service 25 out of $600,000 in back taxes?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4849 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A Yes.
2 Q And you are defrauding the insurance company?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And following your investigation, the government in
5 fact filed a letter reflecting your substantial
6 assistance; is that correct?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q I would like to show you once again the cooperation
9 agreement -- withdrawn. The letter submitted by Seth
10 Marvin on your behalf to Judge Mishler, dated June 21st,
11 1995.
12 (Handed to the witness.)
13 Q I would like to direct your attention specifically to
14 paragraph 13.
15 Am I correct that one of the investigations you
16 assisted
in involved three of your employees, Greg
17 Philips, Linda Zeitzer, Z E I T E R.
18 A Z E I T Z E R.
19 Q Thank you, and Cathy Shkinder, S H K I N D L E R,
20 they were former employees of yours; is that correct?
21 A S C H -- S H K I N D E R.
22 Q Thank you.
23 Am I correct that those three individuals were 24 former employees of yours? 25 A Of Who's Who in U.S. Executives, yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4850 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q That's the company you were the president and
2 principal of; is that correct?
3 A Principal of, yes.
4 Q And those individuals had at some point in time
5 elected not to go to trial -- not to plead guilty, and the
6 case was being prepared to go to trial; is that right?
7 A To the best of my knowledge, yes, sir.
8 Q And am I correct that Mr. Marvin in spea
king to Judge
9 Mishler about your cooperation, tells the judge as it
10 relates to that investigation, given Watstein's history
11 and background, it is quite unlikely that he would have
12 been a government witness at any trial involving Phillips,
13 Zeitzer and Shkinder; is that correct?
14 A You are reading it accurately, sir.
15 Q And am I correct that in close to the last paragraph
16 of the letter, and I am going to direct your attention to
17 the fourth page of the letter, and the third paragraph
18 down, am I correct that in conclusion, Mr. Marvin in
19 discussing your cooperation to Judge Mishler states, that
20 while we are guardedly optimistic that Watstein will
21 change his pattern of conduct in the future, it is
22 difficult to ignore his long term criminal and fraudulent
23 conduct. 24 Is that what Mr. Marvin wrote to Judge Mishler in 25 your
behalf?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4851 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A No. It was not his conclusion, sir.
2 Q Is that a statement he makes in this letter in the
3 next to the last paragraph?
4 A Yes, it was the next to the last paragraph, that's
5 correct.
6 Q Now, you told us you literally invented the concept
7 of Who's Who business leaders; is that correct?
8 A I am not sure the phraseology is correct, but in the
9 format we did, yes.
10 Q You ripped off literally tens of thousands of
11 customers; is that right?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q You cheated the government out of half a million
14 dollars?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q You ripped off the insurance company by filing the
17 false claim about the limo?
18 A Yes, I answered the question about 15 minutes ago,
19 yes.
20 Q You were f
inally sentenced by Judge Mishler on July
21 28th, 1995; is that right?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And now, am I correct that the plea agreement that 24 you had entered back on September 8th, 1993 provided for 25 you to receive a mandatory minimum sentence of no less
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4852 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 than 70 months, or approximately six years in prison; is
2 that correct?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And am I correct that the sentence that you received
5 was six months in your home; is that correct?
6 A Amongst other things, yes, sir.
7 Q Basically Judge Mishler told you you had to stay in
8 your room; is that right?
9 A No, sir. It is not accurate.
10 Q You had to stay in your house?
11 A That's part of the aspects of the sentence; yes.
12 Q By the way, your house in Florida, does it have a
13 swimming pool?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q It is air conditioned I assume?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And how much did you pay for the house?
18 A I don't own the house. It is a rented house.
19 Q How many bedrooms in the house?
20 A Four.
21 Q How many square feet in the house?
22 A 2800.
23 Q And how many people were living in that house during 24 your six month period of home confinement? 25 A Four.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4853 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q Who were those four people?
2 A My daughter, my son, my wife and myself.
3 Q Certainly, sir, you give the meaning to the
4 expression, crime pays, don't you?
5 MR. WHITE: Objection.
6 MR. NELSON: Withdrawn.
7 I have no further questions.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY M
R. TRABULUS:
12 Q Good morning, Mr. West.
13 My name is Norman Trabulus. I am Mr. Gordon's
14 lawyer.
15 A Good morning.
16 Q Is that what you like to be called, Mr. West as
17 opposed to Watstein?
18 A West is fine.
19 Q We will use that. It comes off my tongue easier, and
20 that's one of the reasons you changed your name when you
21 were 18 from Watstein to West; is that right?
22 A A bit --
23 THE COURT: You will slow down, Mr. Trabulus? 24 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you. 25 THE COURT: You are starting off with flank
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4854 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 speed. As you know that's when you throw everything into
2 the boiler, including the ship.
3 MR. TRABULUS: I will go in reverse.
4 THE COURT: As they did in Around the World in 80
5 days. Do you recall that.
6 MR. TRABULUS: I saw the movie.
7 THE COURT: On the way back from England, they
8 had nothing left but the boiler, having thrown everything
9 into the fire. So slow down.
10 Q You also changed it because it was less ethnic; is
11 that correct?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q There is nothing wrong -- withdrawn.
14 You changed it with a view to business purposes?
15 A As you said before, it was easier to say.
16 Q There is nothing wrong per se with changing one's
17 name for business purposes, either because it is easier to
18 say, or because you wanted to have a more Anglo-Saxon
19 sounding name, although it wasn't your reason?
20 A I can't comment on your question as far as the second
21 part. As far as the first part I agree with you.
22 Q In terms of the first part, at the time you changed
23 your name, were you thinking of a career that might 24 involv
e sales? 25 A A business career.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4855 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q A business career?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Certainly you didn't perceive anything improper in
4 changing your name at that time, did you?
5 A Not at all.
6 Q At that point in time you were not planning a career
7 in which you would cheat anyone or defraud anyone; is that
8 right?
9 A That is correct, sir.
10 Q Now, you became familiar during your career with
11 telemarketing; is that correct?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q And in the telemarketing industry, it is common
14 practice, is it not, for people to adopt easy to say
15 names; is that correct?
16 A That is a practice that is in use. I would not call
17 it a common practice, but it is a practice in use.
18 Q And it is a practice in use by perfec
tly legitimate
19 companies; is that correct?
20 A The majority of the large companies do not use that
21 practice, sir. But maybe small companies do.
22 MR. TRABULUS: Move to strike.
23 THE COURT: Motion granted. Strike it out the 24 answer as not responsive. The jury is instructed to 25 disregard it.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4856 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Mr. Watstein, is it not correct that perfectly
2 legitimate companies not engaged in fraud may have
3 employees utilizing easy to pronounce names?
4 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
5 Q Now, you are currently a consultant; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And among one of your clients is Core Bank?
8 A Core States Bank.
9 Q Thank you.
10 Do you intend to get more clients aside from the
11 three you listed origina
l?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Do you utilize a resume or curriculum vitae for that
14 purpose?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q Do you have any kind of document you give clients
17 representing yourself?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q And do I take it -- withdrawn.
20 Is that because you don't want to have to show on
21 a resume what you were doing between 1988 and 1991?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q Now, in the sales business, is it correct that it is 24 the usual practice for salespeople to be paid on 25 commission?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4857 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A No, sir.
2 Q Straight salary is what you believe to be the usual
3 practice?
4 A No, sir. Neither.
5 Q Is it a common practice that sales people be paid on
6 commission?
7 A It is one of the common practices, yes.
8 Q And
is it also a common practice that salespeople
9 have a quota, a minimum number of sales that they must
10 make?
11 A It is a practice.
12 Q Is it a common practice, sir?
13 A It depends on the company, sir.
14 Q Well, are you familiar with a bunch of different
15 companies?
16 A Somewhat.
17 Q And among the companies -- withdrawn.
18 Is it fair to say that a quota system is a
19 practice that can be used by a company which is perfectly
20 legitimate?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Indeed -- withdrawn.
23 Before coming to New York to testify, did you 24 review any documents? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4858 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q What documents did you review, without describing
2 their contents?
3 A The transcripts of the 61 recordings for accuracy.
4 Q And
besides the transcripts, did you review any other
5 documents?
6 A Not prior to coming to New York, no, sir.
7 Q Earlier on in your work as a cooperator were you
8 shown any documents either by one of the Assistant U.S.
9 Attorneys, or by Inspector Biegelman or by another postal
10 inspector?
11 A I don't have a recollection of them sharing documents
12 with me. I may need to rethink that. It goes back a
13 while, but I don't have a recollection of that.
14 Q Were you shown any scripts of sales presentations?
15 A Of whom, sir?
16 Q Well, any that were purported -- reported to you to
17 be of Who's Who Worldwide?
18 A I don't believe so.
19 Q Were you shown any documents or transcripts from the
20 litigation of Reed Elsevir and Who's Who Worldwide?
21 A Not by the postal inspector, but by my attorney.
22 Q Your attorney showed it to you; is that corr
ect?
23 A Yes. 24 Q All right. 25 Were you shown transcripts of testimony by your
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4859 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 attorney?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q Now, the 61 or 60 tapes you made, those were tapes
4 you made starting in August of 1994 and afterwards; is
5 that correct?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Included in that are the tapes made in January of
8 1993, and the April 1993 tape?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Let's talk about the tapes made in August of 1994 and
11 afterwards, and also the April 1993 tape.
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q These were tapes in which you posed as a potential
14 customer; is that correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q I think you indicated in response to questions by
17 Mr. White that in support of those conversations, you
18 spoke to salespeople here
, Annette Haley, Scott
19 Michaelson, Laura Weitz or Winters, and also
20 Steve Walden?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And you also spoke to quite a few other people beyond
23 that; is that right? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And in any of those conversations which you had and
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4860 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 which were tape recorded, did any one of the salespeople
2 promise you a free expense paid trip to New York?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Is that correct in each of those conversations it was
5 explained to you after the initial payment there was a
6 subsequent payment which would be due at about the time
7 the directory would be shipped?
8 A No, it is not accurate as you phrased it.
9 Q Is it accurate in virtually every one of those
10 conversations -- withdrawn.
11 Is
it accurate that the term split billing was
12 used in each of those conversations?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Is it accurate you were told there were to be two
15 separate payments in each of those conversations?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Is it accurate that in the vast majority of those
18 conversations you were told that there would be two
19 separate payments?
20 A I think, sir, it was somewhere between less than half
21 and half would be more accurate.
22 Q Less than half and half?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And do you have the transcripts with you? 25 A Not with me, sir. I do not have them.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4861 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Now, is it correct in some instances -- withdrawn.
2 In virtually all of the conversations you raised
3 the subject of Hilton Head; is that correct?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q In some of the instances you raised the subject of
6 Hilton Head?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q In some instances you raised questions about
9 conferences?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q In some instances the salesperson you spoke to told
12 you Hilton Head was cancelled; is that correct?
13 A In some instances.
14 Q In some instances you were told Vietnam was
15 cancelled?
16 A I think only one instance, sir, maybe two.
17 Q Now, you testified yesterday -- withdrawn.
18 You were not told that each tape recording -- in
19 each tape recording Vietnam occurred?
20 A Rephrase that.
21 Q You said in a couple of tapes you were told Vietnam
22 was cancelled. Is it your testimony that in every other
23 tape you were told that the Vietnam conference had 24 actually occurred? 25 A No, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT
REPORTER 4862 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Now, you testified you first learned of the criminal
2 investigation of your company before the search warrant
3 was first executed; is that correct?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Now, when the first -- the first warrant in your
6 company was executed in June of 1990; is that correct?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q When did you first learn of the criminal
9 investigation of your company?
10 A In May of 1990.
11 Q Now, you testified in the Spring of 1990, you placed
12 a telephone call to Mr. Gordon's company; is that correct?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And that telephone call was not recorded, was it?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q At that point in time you were not cooperating with
17 the government, were you?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q And that telephone call was placed, was it not,
20 before the search warrant
was executed on your company?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q That telephone call was placed, was it not before you
23 were aware of any criminal investigation on your company; 24 is that correct? 25 A That is correct, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4863 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Now, your company had a policy with its employees,
2 salespeople, that it would have a written contract with
3 them, did it not?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And that contract contained a provision called a
6 covenant not to compete; is that correct?
7 A Yes, a restrictive covenant.
8 Q And you know sometimes those restrictive covenants
9 are enforceable in court and sometimes it is not?
10 A That is an accurate statement.
11 Q Accurate?
12 A That's an accurate statement.
13 Q An accurate statement?
14 A Yes, you are
accurate.
15 Q Now, you say that you called Mr. Gordon's company and
16 the phone was answered, Who's Who Worldwide; is that
17 correct?
18 A It was some Who's Who type name, yes, sir.
19 Q It was answered Who's Who as opposed to corporate
20 offices?
21 A That is correct, sir.
22 Q And do you recall the address that you called him at?
23 A It was a Long Island address. I don't recall it, no, 24 sir. 25 Q I think you say he indicated to you as being
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4864 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 something involved in computers?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q Do you recall the name of the computer company he
4 said?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q And I will show you Exhibit Z, a letter from Who's
7 Who in America to Mr. Gordon, it says UVX Computers.
8 Does that refresh your recollection as to
the
9 name of the computer company he mentioned he was in?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q Now, it is correct that Mr. Canino -- withdrawn.
12 When you called Mr. Gordon, the subject was
13 Mr. Canino; was it not?
14 A Partially.
15 Q Mr. Canino was someone who worked for you?
16 A Currently working for me.
17 Q Currently working for you?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And you called Mr. Gordon and discussed something
20 about Mr. Canino; is that correct?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q It has been spelled with a K, but I believe it is
23 C A N I N O. 24 Now, is it correct that Mr. Canino had in fact 25 been involved in some sort of business involving vitamins?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4865 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And it is your testimony you called the phone number
3 that says Who's Who Wo
rldwide?
4 A Who's Who something.
5 Q Excuse me, Who's Who something, whether Worldwide or
6 not, and you hung up because you didn't know what to say
7 at that point; is that right?
8 A My first call, yes.
9 Q When you first called were you expecting to hear
10 something about Who's Who?
11 A Not really.
12 Q When you first called, were you expecting to complain
13 to Mr. Gordon that Mr. Canino was doing something with
14 vitamins?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q When you first called Mr. Gordon, was it your plan to
17 complain that Mr. Canino was doing something outside of
18 your business relating to Who's Who?
19 A You are referring to the first call or second call,
20 sir?
21 Q The very first call when you hung up not knowing what
22 to say?
23 A I am not sure of my intention. To validate if it was 24 a truthful rumor might be more
accurate. 25 Q A truthful rumor that Mr. Canino was doing something
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4866 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 with Mr. Gordon relating to Who's Who?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q And so, it is your testimony that when you called up,
4 you were surprised to hear Who's Who answered, and hung up
5 right away?
6 A I really thought it was not going to be true, yes,
7 sir.
8 Q And you didn't think -- you are an intelligent
9 fellow, correct?
10 A I think so.
11 Q So do I.
12 You are telling me you didn't plan in advance
13 what you were going to say when you made this call?
14 A I didn't think it was a true rumor, sir. I was
15 surprised it was truthful. It threw me off.
16 Q So, you had no game plan in your head when you called
17 up and you were told the very thing that you were said to
18 expect; is that correct? You had to game plan?
19 A I think I had a game plan. I was surprised of the
20 phone being answered as it was so blatantly.
21 Q When you say blatantly, you mean it was just
22 identified Who's Who; is that correct?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And again, it was your testimony that you called 25 again, and again it was answered Who's Who; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4867 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 correct?
2 A That's right.
3 Q You asked to speak to the corporate president; is
4 that correct?
5 A Correct.
6 Q And you were put through to Mr. Gordon; is that
7 correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q The president of Who's Who?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And you immediately asked him, are you the president
12 of Who's Who; is that correct?
13 A I said owner, I believe
, not president.
14 Q Are you the owner of Who's Who; is that correct?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q He denied it right then and there?
17 A Yes, he denied it for the moment. That's correct,
18 sir.
19 Q At that point in time when you called him you had not
20 yet said to him, I am calling about a problem with
21 Mr. Canino, had you?
22 A I am not sure which part of the conversation preceded
23 the other. 24 Q It is your testimony you asked for Mr. Gordon -- 25 A I asked for the owner of the company.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4868 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q For the owner of the company?
2 A Yes.
3 Q The phone was ask answered twice, Who's Who?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Is that correct?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Mr. Gordon got on the phone?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You asked if he was the owner of Who'
s Who?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And he denied having anything to do with any Who's
12 Who business; is that correct?
13 A In substance, yes.
14 Q Now, it is also your testimony -- at the time of the
15 telephone call, you didn't know you were under any
16 investigation; is that correct?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q You certainly didn't mention to Mr. Gordon that you
19 were under any investigation; is that correct?
20 A Of course. I didn't know that.
21 Q And it is your testimony -- and the subject of an
22 investigation was not brought up by you, was it?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q And it is your testimony that Mr. Gordon told you 25 that nobody would investigate him?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4869 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A No. He did not use that phrase, sir.
2 Q He did not?
3 A No, that no sa
lesman would give him a hard time.
4 Q You are certain he didn't use the word "investigate"
5 at all; is that correct?
6 A I can't be certain, I am almost positive.
7 Q Almost positive?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Is that correct?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And did Mr. Gordon tell you that -- withdrawn.
12 You threatened to sue Mr. Gordon, didn't you?
13 A In the third call, yes.
14 Q And that was the call, the third call when also the
15 phone was answered Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q After the first call, when you say he identified --
18 he denied he was the president of Who's Who Worldwide,
19 evidently he didn't give instructions to his staff not to
20 answer the phone Who's Who; is that correct?
21 A I have no idea what instructions he gave his staff,
22 sir.
23 Q You called the third time and they answered Who's
24 Who; is that correct? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4870 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And he -- you asked to be put through to Mr. Gordon?
2 A Yes.
3 Q You were put through to him again?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Evidently he did not give instructions to be put
6 through to him, or people asking for the president of
7 Who's Who, not to be put through?
8 A I assume so.
9 Q And you spoke to him?
10 A Yes.
11 Q He spoke to you?
12 A Yes.
13 Q In that conversation you threaten to bring a lawsuit;
14 is that correct?
15 A Among other things, yes.
16 Q And that's on the grounds that Mr. Canino would be
17 violating his covenant not to compete? Is that one of the
18 grounds?
19 A One of the grounds, yes.
20 Q And this is where -- and this is the conversation --
21 withdrawn.
22 So, in this conversation it was clear to
23 Mr. Gordon, was it not, that you and he were in an 24 adversarial posture; is that correct? 25 A Potential adversarial posture, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4871 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q You were threatening a lawsuit?
2 A Towards the close of the conversation, yes, that's
3 correct, sir.
4 Q In the course of threatening a lawsuit, you made it
5 clear to him that in the -- if there were to be a lawsuit,
6 anything -- you would use whatever you could against him
7 legitimately? Fair to say?
8 A It was not a phraseology I used, sir.
9 Q Okay.
10 It is fair to say that somebody -- you are a
11 businessman; is that correct?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Were you ever threatened by a lawsuit in the course
14 of business?
15
A Yes, sir.
16 Q And when you are threatened with a lawsuit, is it
17 fair to say that anything you have done or said could be
18 fair game; is that correct?
19 A Certainly.
20 Q So this is the conversation in which you say that
21 Mr. Gordon told you that if his salespeople gave him a
22 hard time, he would falsely accuse them of the crime of
23 stealing property from them, and have him -- have them 24 arrested; is that correct? 25 A Accuse them was the phrase.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4872 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q He would accuse them of theft; is that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And you were speaking to someone -- of someone in an
4 adversarial posture to him and telling him that he was
5 committing a crime?
6 A That's what he said.
7 Q You say that's what he said?
8 A Yes.
9
Q But he didn't say investigate?
10 A Not to the best of my recollection.
11 Q Now, do you recall the day before yesterday being
12 asked the following questions and giving the following
13 answers, and I will read them all, and we are at the
14 transcript of the trial at page 4401, beginning with line
15 19, and continuing to page 4403, line 3.
16 THE COURT: You are going to read slowly, aren't
17 you, Mr. Trabulus?
18 MR. TRABULUS: I will do my best.
19 Question: Did you then have a subsequent
20 conversation with Mr. Gordon?
21 Answer: Yes, sir.
22 Question: Tell us about that?
23 Answer: Approximately 30 minutes later it dawned 24 on me that I was naive that the phone was answered twice, 25 Who's Who Worldwide. And, in fact, it is possible that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4873 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Mr. Gordon was not being candid on the phone with me. I
2 called back again asking for Mr. Gordon, and the same
3 individual who identified himself as Bruce Gordon came to
4 the phone. In this conversation he now admitted that he
5 had created a competitive Who's Who to my company. He
6 stated in fact that it was a big world out there, that I
7 had no ability to forestall him from using the term "Who's
8 Who."
9 I then indicated it came to my attention he had
10 taken my script and materials I had copyrighted. He
11 indicated it was his option to do and I would have no
12 action against him. In fact, if I were to bring an action
13 against him only the lawyers would get rich.
14 Mr. Gordon then stated in fact, he operated in a
15 different style than I did, and he would be more
16 successful than I was. His style was to closely monitor
17 the salespeople, t
o literally walk up and down the
18 telemarketing room. And he was told that my style was to
19 do consulting, stay in the background and hire other
20 salespeople, a sales force.
21 He finally indicated his strategy of dealing with
22 salespeople who were difficult, who gave him a hard time,
23 was to state that they had stolen property from him, and 24 have them arrested, and, therefore, no one would, quote, 25 close quote, investigate Bruce Gordon.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4874 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 I indicated I would seek out an attorney to sue
2 him.
3 He indicated it would not be fruitful. That was
4 the last conversation we had.
5 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
6 proceedings.)
7 Q Do you recall being asked those questions and giving
8 those answers?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And when you gave those answers there was no
11 hesitation in your mind, was there, that Mr. Gordon
12 identified his company as not some Who's Who company, but
13 Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
14 A I think that's accurate, yes, sir.
15 Q Indeed, your recollection of Mr. Gordon saying --
16 withdrawn.
17 The impression of your recollection that you gave
18 to the jury of Mr. Gordon saying, investigate, was such a
19 vivid one, that you actually said quote, unquote, before
20 saying the word "investigate"; is that correct?
21 A I don't have a full recollection, but you read back
22 the transcript, yes, sir.
23 Q Now, is it correct in your business the letters that 24 were sent out to potential Who's Who members said that 25 they had been comminuted by another member?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4875
Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A In some cases it was said, and in some cases it was
2 not.
3 Q You testified that Inspector Biegelman gave you a
4 letter signed by Cathy Ross, a Who's Who Worldwide letter
5 to look at; is that correct?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And that was in connection with the telephone calls
8 you started making in August of 1994; is that correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q And was that letter written about that time, the
11 summer of 1994?
12 A I believe it was written a month or two before the
13 date of the first phone call.
14 Q Do you recall if that letter used the word nominate?
15 Yes or no, sir?
16 A I don't have a clear recollection, no.
17 Q And were you shown some letters that did not use the
18 word "nominate"?
19 A I was only shown one letter at that time.
20 Q Is it correct that that letter certainly did n
ot say
21 that the recipient had been nominated by another member?
22 A I don't have a recollection of the text of that
23 letter, sir. 24 Q I will show you a copy, my copy of 25 Government's Exhibit 232 in evidence. There are some
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4876 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 others around there.
2 (Handed to the witness.)
3 Q Is that a letter signed by Cathy Ross?
4 A Yes, it is, sir.
5 Q Dated July 7th, 1994?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q There were certain other letters signed by Cathy
8 Ross, the same date, Exhibit 232, Exhibit 231, yes?
9 A This is a different one, sir?
10 Q A different addressee.
11 Take a look at those, 231, 232 and 233.
12 (Handed to the witness.)
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Any of those say the person receiving the letter was
15 nominated? Did they us
e the word "nominate?"
16 A No, that is not the phrase used.
17 Q The phrase is selected; is that correct?
18 A There is an additional phrase in the second
19 paragraph, yes, that did -- that you did not mention.
20 Q I will read the paragraphs so the jury knows what we
21 are talking about.
22 Dear blank. You were recently selected for
23 possible inclusion in the Who's Who registry of business 24 leaders, 1994-95 edition. 25 We are pleased to inform you on July 1st the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4877 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 office of public affairs confirmed your inclusion in the
2 registry pending additional information about your current
3 career position and business expertise. Please refer to
4 the enclosed form.
5 Is that a fair reading of the first two
6 paragraphs marked as Exhibits 231, 232 an
d 233?
7 A Absolutely.
8 Q As best you can recall was that the text of the Cathy
9 Ross letter about month before the phone calls?
10 A I don't have the exact recollection of the letter.
11 It is same all right in contents, but it might not be
12 exactly the same.
13 MR. JENKS: Norman.
14 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
15 (Mr. Jenks confers with Mr. Trabulus.)
16 Q I am going to now show you another
17 Government's Exhibit, and that's number 229. And that's
18 another Cathy Ross letter.
19 (Handed to the witness.)
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Does that use the word "nominated?"
22 A No, it does not.
23 Q It is dated June 23rd, 1994; is that correct? 24 A There is different phraseology on this letter. 25 Q The phraseology is different, it is a somewhat
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4878 Watstein-cross/Trabul
us
1 different form of letter and it doesn't use the word
2 "nominated?"
3 A That's correct.
4 Q It is a little earlier?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q June 23rd?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Here is an April 12th, 1994 letter, also signed by
9 Cathy Ross, and still different phraseology; is that
10 correct?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And it does not use the word "nominated" and it?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q Now, yesterday, did you testify as follows, and
15 directing one's attention.
16 MR. JENKS: It was the day before.
17 MR. TRABULUS: I am sorry, it was the day before
18 yesterday, the 17th, at page 4406, beginning line 13, and
19 continuing to 4407, line 4, sir.
20 Q Were you asked these questions and did you give these
21 answers:
22 Question: Now, let me direct your attention to
23 the summer of 1994. Were you asked to do anything
by 24 postal inspectors at that time? 25 Answer: Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4879 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Question: What were you asked to do then?
2 Answer: Inspector Biegelman, I believe it is, do
3 you have the spelling of that, sir? Asked me to make some
4 phone calls to Who's Who Worldwide, again indicating I was
5 an applicant to Who's Who Worldwide, and to determine the
6 nature of the sales presentation.
7 Inspector Biegelman supplied me with a letter of
8 solicitation from a person alleging to be Cathy Ross,
9 R O S S, indicating that the party receiving that letter
10 had in fact been nominated, and I was to indicate that I
11 had received that letter, and had sent in my ballot or
12 application, and not received a call back as of yet.
13 Do you recall being asked those questions and
14 giving those answers?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Now, I think you were asked by both Mr. Jenks and
17 Mr. Nelson whether or not in making the telephone calls
18 you were seeking to find incriminating evidence; is that
19 correct, or inculpatory evidence?
20 A The word exculpatory --
21 Q Inculpatory, I meant to say. If I spoke, my
22 apologies.
23 A Yes, sir, that's correct. 24 Q You said no, it was not your objective? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4880 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q You were not asked what your objective was, were you?
2 A No.
3 Q But is it your position, since you were not looking
4 for incriminatory evidence, that you were simply looking
5 for evidence either way, whether it helped or hurt the
6 subject of the investigation? Is that your position? Yes
7 or
no?
8 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.
9 Q Is it your testimony that in making these telephone
10 calls, you in questioning the person on the other side, or
11 in speaking to them, sought equally to elicit things that
12 might be helpful to Who's Who Worldwide, the subject of
13 the investigation, just as much as you were looking for
14 things that might be hurtful?
15 A I can't answer that question yes or no, sir.
16 Q Did there come any point in time where things were
17 said on these tape recordings by the other side, which
18 might have tended to show lack of criminal intent in your
19 judgment?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And did you pursue those things and seek to elicit
22 more details about them?
23 A In some cases, yes, sir. 24 (Mr. Trabulus confers with Mr. White.) 25 Q Now, I think at one point yesterday you asked if you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4881 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 could see a transcript of a phone call you had made on
2 January 20th, 1993; do you recall that? And you were not
3 allowed to see it at that point in time?
4 A Actually it was in reference to a different call,
5 but, yes.
6 Q So we will not ask about that one.
7 Certainly you heard yesterday a tape recording of
8 a conversation you had with Frank Martin on January 20th,
9 1993?
10 A We had a marshal recording.
11 Q The tape ran out at the end; is that right?
12 A I mean we only heard parts of the tape.
13 Q You heard portions of it?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And you were questioned about portions of it?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And on that same date, January 20th, 1993, did you
18 have another conversation with another employee or
19 ex-employ of Who's Who Wo
rldwide?
20 A Yes, I believe so, yes.
21 Q A woman by the name of Regina?
22 A I believe so.
23 Q And was that a transcript you reviewed before coming 24 here? 25 A No, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4882 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q You were not shown that transcript?
2 A I did not review it, nor was I shown a copy of that
3 transcript.
4 Q Were you ever shown a copy of that transcript?
5 A Not to the best of my recollection.
6 Q Was that transcript one of the 61 you spoke about?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q So, there were more tape recordings you made beside
9 the 61 that you testified to?
10 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no.
11 Q Well, you testified that there were 61 tape
12 recordings you made; is that right?
13 A Of current Who's Who Worldwide salespeople.
14 Q
Were there more tape recordings that you made in
15 relation to Who's Who Worldwide besides the 61?
16 A They are tape recordings made at the Garden City
17 Hotel on two separate occasions. And there were multiple
18 interviews in those two tape recordings, so it depends on
19 how you defined your term, sir.
20 Q Aside from those and the 61, were there any others
21 made by you?
22 A Of Who's Who Worldwide?
23 Q Yes. 24 A Not to the best of my recollection. 25 Q Okay.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4883 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Now, this woman, Regina, do you recall if you
2 spoke to her after or before your interview with
3 Mr. Martin?
4 A I don't have a clear recollection of that
5 conversation, sir.
6 Q Was she someone who had been referred to you by
7 Mr. Martin?
8 A I don't h
ave a clear recollection of that, sir. This
9 goes back several years ago.
10 Q When you spoke to Mr. Martin in the tape recorded
11 conversation, was that the first time you ever spoke to
12 Mr. Martin?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q You had not spoken to him on the telephone before
15 that?
16 A That is correct, sir.
17 Q And you had spoken to his wife before that, is that
18 how you set up -- excuse me, he had spoken to your wife
19 before that and that's how the interview was set up?
20 A That's correct, sir.
21 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I would offer
22 Defendant's Exhibit GA, a tape recording of the
23 conversation with Regina. 24 THE COURT: George Abel, GA? 25 MR. TRABULUS: GA, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4884 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 I have Exhibit GAA, which is a transcript, a
2 portion of the transcript of that tape recording, which I
3 will offer to the jury as an aid. This transcript was
4 actually supplied to me by the government.
5 THE COURT: Any objection?
6 MR. WHITE: Judge, may I have a moment to
7 actually review this transcript?
8 THE COURT: Surely.
9 What is the date of that recording?
10 MR. TRABULUS: January 20th, 1993.
11 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, it is going to take me a
12 couple of minutes to review it? Do you want to take the
13 break early, or I will read it as quickly as possible.
14 THE COURT: All right.
15 We will take a ten-minute recess. Do not discuss
16 the case, and please recess yourselves.
17 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
18 courtroom.)
19
20 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM O
FFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4885 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 (The following takes place in the absence of the
2 jury.)
3 THE COURT: Did someone want to see me?
4 MR. WHITE: Yes, with respect to the tape, I have
5 no objection to the tape being received in evidence. But
6 only that instead of two pages being taken out of context,
7 I ask that the full transcript go to the jury. The full
8 tape is coming in, the full transcript should go in as
9 well.
10 MR. TRABULUS: I was only going to play what is
11 reflected on this transcript. If Mr. White wishes to play
12 and afford the entire transcript, he can do that.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 MR. NELSON: Objection to that. There are
15 portions of the tape referring to my client. He is not an
16 employee of the company at this time. He is not working
17 for the company at that point in time. So it wou
ld not be
18 admissions by him. It is not a co-conspirator statement
19 made at that time. So it is not the basis of somebody
20 else's statement.
21 I have no objection to this portion coming in.
22 But to the government seeking certain portions, I do have
23 objections to. 24 THE COURT: You say your client is on this tape? 25 MR. NELSON: There are discussions about my
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4886 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 client. This is another former employee of Who's Who
2 Worldwide who is interviewed on the same date that my
3 client was interviewed, January 20th, 1993. Neither of
4 them were employees of Who's Who Worldwide at the time.
5 My client doesn't speak on that tape, but there are
6 discussions on it about my client by this other person.
7 THE COURT: Is that what is in this transcript?
8 MR. TRABULUS: Mr. Nelson is not objecting to the
9 portion I am wishing to introduce. There are references
10 to his client, but just simply to indicate that he
11 introduced Regina, the person being interviewed to
12 Mr. West, and also Mr. West paraphrased something on the
13 tape which was played yesterday spoken by Mr. Martin. It
14 is a reasonably accurate paraphrase.
15 So, I gather Mr. Nelson is not objecting to
16 that. I have not focussed on the rest of the transcript.
17 THE COURT: Is this a transcript of one telephone
18 conversation?
19 MR. TRABULUS: No. It is an in-person meeting.
20 I am offering an excerpt of that conversation.
21 THE COURT: This is an in-person meeting?
22 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
23 THE COURT: The in-person meeting was with all 24 these people? 25 MR. TRABULUS: No, your Honor, these were the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR,
CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4887 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 different names Mr. West used in his various
2 conversations.
3 The cover sheet is a government prepared form.
4 And it lists the name of the confidential informant --
5 actually not his real name, just his various aliases and
6 it says Regina, L N U, for last name unknown. So there
7 are two participants in the conversation.
8 THE COURT: It is Regina and Mr. Watstein?
9 MR. TRABULUS: That's correct.
10 THE COURT: This is an in-person conversation?
11 MR. TRABULUS: That's correct.
12 THE COURT: The transcript, which is
13 Defendant's Exhibit GAA, you say, and that would not be
14 very wise. I would say GA-1?
15 MR. TRABULUS: All right.
16 THE COURT: GA is the tape and GA-1 would be the
17 transcript.
18 MR. TRABULUS: All right.
19 THE COURT: The government wan
ts to offer the
20 rest of the tape recording, not transcripted.
21 MR. TRABULUS: It is, but I have not made a copy
22 of the transcript.
23 THE COURT: What part of the transcript are you 24 objecting to, Mr. Nelson? Can I see it? 25 MR. NELSON: I have not reviewed the remainder of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4888 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 the transcript, but there are discussions concerning my
2 client.
3 THE COURT: If the discussions say your client
4 received the congressional meddle of honor with two oak
5 leaf clusters, you would not object to that, would you?
6 MR. NELSON: Of course not.
7 THE COURT: What part of the transcript is
8 objectionable.
9 MR. NELSON: I reserve my objection until after
10 the lunch recess, your Honor, for the remainder coming
11 in. And I will review it during the
lunch recess.
12 MR. WHITE: To be clear the part that
13 Mr. Trabulus is offering contains a reference to
14 Mr. Martin.
15 THE COURT: Mr. Trabulus said that already, and
16 he said it is an accurate reference, and Mr. Nelson has no
17 objection to that.
18 MR. NELSON: Yes.
19 THE COURT: We will reserve on the rest of the
20 transcript later on.
21 Bring in the jury.
22 MR. WHITE: I assume Mr. Trabulus wants to
23 question Mr. Watstein about the tape. There may be parts 24 earlier in the tape providing context to what Mr. Trabulus 25 wishes to offer.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4889 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 THE COURT: Then we will lose that context. So
2 what?
3 MR. WHITE: I am sorry, your Honor?
4 THE COURT: So what?
5 MR. WHITE: What if he asks about something and
6 M
r. Watstein needs to explain.
7 THE COURT: We will see. Why jump ahead of the
8 game.
9 MR. WHITE: Okay.
10 THE COURT: I was told when I appeared before the
11 United States Senate Judiciary Committee not to decide
12 things that are not before me. Did you understand that
13 principle?
14 MR. WHITE: I do, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Bring in the jury.
16 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
17 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
18 courtroom.)
19 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
20 jury.
21 We took more than ten minutes because we had to
22 discuss certain things. You know that we use some of this
23 time to discuss evidentiary matters which are not for your 24 consideration. 25 You may proceed, Mr. Trabulus.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4890 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Government's Exhibit GA, George Abel, and GA-1,
2 George Abel 1, to the extent we have discussed it, is in
3 evidence; is that correct?
4 (Defendant's Exhibit GA received in evidence.)
5 (Defendant's Exhibit GA-1 received in evidence.)
6 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, yes. I have actually
7 listed the transcript as a defense exhibit, I put the
8 sticker on it. I guess it can be a government's.
9 THE COURT: Did I say government's?
10 Defendant's Exhibit GA and
11 Defendant's Exhibit GA-1, are in evidence.
12 MR. TRABULUS: I am handing GA-1 to the jury, I
13 chose the terminology, unfortunately as GAA, but it is
14 GA-1.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published
17 to the jury.)
18 THE COURT: It is not an unwise choice,
19 Mr. Trabulus. I prefer my way.
20 Did you ever hear that song by Frank Sinatra, My
21 Way?
22 MR. TRABULUS: I believe so.
23 THE COURT: Very appropriate for judges, I 24 thought. 25 MR. TRABULUS: I would agree, your Honor.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4891 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1
2 CROSS EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. TRABULUS:
4 Q Mr. West, are you reading this?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And Regina came in for a job?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And the same ad placed by people to work?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And you were posing to hire someone working for a
11 Who's Who business; is that correct?
12 A That's correct.
13 MR. TRABULUS: Okay, we will play the tape.
14 THE COURT: This is January 20th, 1993?
15 MR. TRABULUS: That's correct.
16 (Tape is played.)
17 Q Mr. West, that's an extract from your conversation
18 with Regina; is that correct?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And you recall that; is that right?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Now, in that conversation you didn't ask Regina in so
23 many words what percentage of people were nominated by 24 other members as opposed to coming from a mailing lead, 25 did you?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4892 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A I --
2 Q Yes or no, sir.
3 A I am sorry, I need to have my memory refreshed of the
4 whole conversation, if that is possible, at least the
5 transcript of it.
6 Q Now, do you think you did earlier on --
7 A I don't want to hazard a guess about a conversation.
8 Q Excuse me. Do you recall Regina refusing to answer
9 any questions of yours?
10 A I don't have any recollection of that one way or
11 another, sir.
12 Q Is this something you had to goad her and pressure
13 her to answer the que
stion?
14 A Sir, I don't mean to be disrespectful, you have given
15 me part of a conversation that goes back many years ago --
16 Q You will have an opportunity to review the entire
17 conversation, but right now answer my question.
18 Do you recall if Regina was refusing to give
19 information?
20 A I don't have a recollection, sir.
21 Q Do you recall that the portion that I just played to
22 you said one last question?
23 A That's what it says, yes. 24 Q And do you recall, you didn't say I am going to ask 25 you about something we talked about before? Do you recall
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4893 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 you didn't say that?
2 A In what you just played, yes, that's correct.
3 Q And do you recall without going into it in great
4 detail -- were you present in the courtroom when there wa
s
5 a conversation out of the presence of the jury before the
6 Judge?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And there was some conversation whether the entire
9 conversation would be played, and whether the entire
10 transcript would be made available to the jury; is that
11 correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you listened to that; is that correct?
14 A Not totally, sir.
15 Q You heard Mr. White say that it was his position that
16 he wanted the entire -- that there might be a need for you
17 to answer something in context, and in that event you
18 should have the entire thing --
19 A I heard Mr. White say that.
20 Q You took up on that, right?
21 A I listened to what Mr. White said, yes.
22 Q Immediately after I asked you that question, you said
23 you wanted to hear the entire thing played; is that right? 24 A That's my response, sir, yes. 25 MR. T
RABULUS: At this point, I would suggest
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4894 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 that what we do is have Mr. West alone listen to the
2 entire tape.
3 THE COURT: Right now?
4 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, he said he needs to refresh
5 his recollection.
6 THE COURT: No. We will complete everything else
7 except this, and during the lunch hour he will do that.
8 How much more of this transcript is there? How
9 many pages? If it is only a few pages, okay.
10 MR. TRABULUS: I think about nine or ten.
11 MR. WHITE: The total is 11 pages.
12 THE COURT: The total is 11, and we have looked
13 at two, right?
14 MR. WHITE: Right.
15 MR. TRABULUS: Right.
16 THE COURT: So there are nine pages left?
17 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
18 THE COURT: We will let him take a look at it.
19 It is not a lo
t.
20 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Do you want to show it to him?
22 MR. TRABULUS: Do you have a copy?
23 THE COURT: Do you want to staple that together? 24 MR. TRABULUS: Yes. 25 THE COURT: Do you want to peruse that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4895 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 transcript, Mr. Watstein, and see if there is anything in
2 there relating to the questions that you were just asked.
3 A Sure.
4 (Transcript handed to the witness.)
5 THE COURT: You better mark the transcript,
6 Mr. Trabulus.
7 MR. TRABULUS: Sure.
8 THE COURT: Perhaps you ought to mark it GA-2.
9 MR. TRABULUS: Okay.
10 THE COURT: And that's the full transcript. And
11 that is for identification.
12 (Defendant's Exhibit GA-2 marked for ID.)
13 THE COURT: Have you read the transcript?
14 THE WITNESS: Just one more second, sir. I am on
15 the last page.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
18 proceedings.)
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Now, Mr. West, is it correct that the first point at
21 which the subject of nomination comes up is in the point
22 which was played to you on the tape?
23 A I think that's correct, sir. 24 Q And you were the one who brought the subject up; is 25 that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4896 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And you did not ask Regina what percentage of people
3 were nominated by other members, and what percentage came
4 from mailing leads, did you?
5 A I did not ask that question, yes, sir.
6 Q Now, what you did was -- withdrawn.
7 You had discussed with her, and you let her
know
8 that Frank had sent her in?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Is that correct?
11 A That is correct.
12 Q And then Frank in a sense was responsible for her
13 getting this job interview; is that correct?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q And then you told her something that Frank says; is
16 that correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you certainly would not, in doing that, expect
19 her then to say something contradictory to what Frank
20 said; is that correct?
21 A Not necessarily, I don't necessarily agree with that
22 statement.
23 Q Is it fair that you expected her to agree as to what 24 Frank said concerning the percentage when you asked that 25 question?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4897 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A I had the expectancy, sir, but I wasn't certain.
2 Q All right.
3 Now, s
he then explained to you that in all
4 fairness to Bruce and his company, he did make it clear at
5 one point that he didn't want people actually thinking
6 that they were nominated?
7 A What page are you not, sir?
8 Q Page 7, at the top.
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And you took that to mean, I assume that he made it
11 clear that he didn't want people to actually think that
12 they had been nominated by another member; is that
13 correct?
14 A No, I didn't take it to be that, sir.
15 Q And did you follow up on that by asking her in what
16 respects he didn't want people thinking that they were
17 nominated?
18 A I don't see a follow up question there.
19 Q Did you ask whether or not the sales presentation
20 that was prepared by Mr. Gordon and submitted to the
21 salespeople to use, contained within it a statement that
22 the person being spoken to
had been nominated by another
23 member? Did you ask that? 24 A I don't see that explicit question here, no. 25 Q Did you ask whether -- withdrawn.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4898 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 You are familiar with the term "objection sheet"?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Are you not?
4 A Yes.
5 Q An objection sheet is not part of the main sales
6 presentation?
7 A It is called a catalogue of objections, yes.
8 Q And it is something that is customarily used in phone
9 sales to deal with questions that may or may not arise
10 during the course of a sales presentation; is that
11 correct?
12 A Actually barriers as opposed to questions.
13 Q Things that may be stated by a potential customer
14 which might seem to be some kind of impediment to the sale
15 being consummated; is that correct?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And did you ask this woman, Regina, whether or not
18 any of the objection sheets that were prepared and used in
19 the Who's Who Worldwide, for use in response to a
20 question, who nominated me or something like that, did you
21 ask her whether any of those said that the person -- that
22 the salesperson was to say that another member had
23 nominated the person being spoken to? 24 A I did not ask that question, sir. 25 Q Did you is -- did you ask this woman whether or not
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4899 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 any members of the sales staff had been falsely accused of
2 stealing?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Did you ask her whether any of them had been
5 threatened with being falsely accused of stealing?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q At the time of this conversation you were aware, w
ere
8 you not, that there had been some turn over; is that
9 correct?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And now that you have reviewed this, you know that
12 you had spoken to Mr. Martin before you spoke to Regina;
13 is that correct?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q And Mr. Martin himself told you there had been some
16 turn over and people left; is that right?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And you didn't -- withdrawn.
19 At the point in which you spoke to Regina, did
20 you have pressure in your mind your conversation with
21 Mr. Gordon in which you claimed that he told you that he
22 was going to falsely accuse salespeople of stealing from
23 him if they gave him a hard time? Did you have that fresh 24 in your mind by that time? 25 A By fresh in my mind, how do you define that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4900 Watstein-
cross/Trabulus
1 Q I will withdraw the question.
2 A Okay.
3 Q You didn't ask this woman whether or not that was
4 what was happening in the business, that people were being
5 falsely accused of stealing when they left?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Now, when this Regina said that Bruce made it clear
8 at one point, that he didn't want people actually thinking
9 that they were nominated, what you did is say that that
10 was later on, correct?
11 A Yes, that is correct.
12 Q And you wanted to create the impression that there
13 was some period of time when Bruce did, or the company did
14 want to make it look that people were being nominated by
15 other members?
16 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
17 It is not an accurate question.
18 Q You didn't ask any follow ups concerning that?
19 A Would you rephrase that?
20 Q You
didn't ask any follow up questions concerning
21 that, did you?
22 A I did ask a follow up question as you see here.
23 That's the question you just asked me about. 24 Q That was not a question. That was a statement by 25 you; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4901 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A It was a rhetorical statement, yes.
2 Q And then you dropped the entire subject and moved on
3 to your hiring time table; is that correct?
4 A When she answered my question, yes, sir.
5 Q Now, it is your testimony that in the course of
6 conducting these interviews, you were not looking
7 specifically for things that were incriminatory; is that
8 correct?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q And that you were attempting to be fair to the
11 company, to Mr. Gordon; is that correct?
12 A I think that's an accu
rate statement, yes.
13 Q That's what you believe you were attempting to be; is
14 that correct?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Now, going back to this conversation you had with
17 Mr. Gordon in which you threatened to sue him, in
18 connection with that, you didn't call the postal
19 inspectors to make a complaint about Mr. Gordon and his
20 business, did you?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Now that would have been -- at that point in time did
23 you perceive that you were in your own business doing 24 something which was unlawful? 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4902 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q You did not?
2 A No.
3 Q Okay.
4 You thought at that point in time what you were
5 doing lawful and you didn't commit a crime?
6 A I didn't give the term "lawful" any thought at that
7 period of
time.
8 Q Is it fair to say that you felt at that point in time
9 the conduct of your business was not violating any law?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And you were not afraid that if you contacted the
12 postal inspectors, that the postal inspectors -- you would
13 be drawing attention to your business and it might be
14 subject to a criminal prosecution?
15 A That is correct.
16 Q And the fact that you didn't call the postal
17 inspectors on Mr. Gordon, that doesn't mean that you
18 yourself was afraid of being looked at by the postal
19 inspectors?
20 A Would you rephrase? I don't understand your
21 question.
22 Q I will withdraw it.
23 A Thank you. 24 Q Let's talk about how you first got into Who's Who. 25 Before you opened up your business, Who's Who in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4903 Watstein-cro
ss/Trabulus
1 American Business Leaders was it?
2 A U.S. Executives.
3 Q I am sorry, I misspoke.
4 Before you opened up Who's Who in American
5 executives, were you ever falsely involved in American
6 Who's Who activity?
7 A Yes.
8 Q What Who's Who activity was that?
9 A In the winter or late -- the end of the year 1997.
10 Q '87?
11 A Yes, '87. I did a test mailing to see if a concept
12 would be palatable. And that mailing pre-dates the actual
13 incorporation of the company.
14 Q All right, let's go back to that test mailing.
15 Before that test mailing had you yourself ever
16 worked in any Who's Who business?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Had you yourself ever had any involvement in a Who's
19 Who business, even if you weren't an employee?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Had you yourself ever been nominated, or recommended
22 or
included or offered in inclusion in any Who's Who?
23 A It's possible, but I don't have any clear 24 recollection as to that. 25 Q How did the idea -- withdrawn.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4904 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Did somebody suggest to you you get into the
2 Who's Who business?
3 A Not to the best of my recollection.
4 Q Was that something you thought of yourself?
5 A I believe so, yes.
6 Q And you already testified you are a well educated
7 guy, you went to the Wharton School of Finance; is that
8 correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And that's a well and prestigious school; is that
11 correct?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Did you do research before you did your test mailing
14 of the Who's Who industry?
15 A I don't know if research is a correct term, but I did
16 some kind of preparation.
17 Q What kind of preparation did you do?
18 A My best recollection going back eleven years ago, I
19 determined the name was in the public domain and no one
20 company owned the name Who's Who.
21 Q You researched that it was lawful -- withdrawn --
22 that anybody could use the term "Who's Who"; is that
23 correct? 24 A That's my understanding at that time. 25 Q Did you do anything else by way of researching it?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4905 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A Not that I have a clear recollection.
2 Q Did you try to find out anything about the way other
3 companies that published Who's Whos operated?
4 A I may have. I don't have a clear recollection, sir.
5 Q Were you familiar at that point in time with Who's
6 Who in America?
7 A Vaguely, yes.
8 Q Had you ever seen a Who's Who in Ame
rica?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Did you ever know anybody included in Who's Who in
11 America?
12 A Probably. I don't have any clear recollection of
13 that.
14 Q Did you know anything about the process by which
15 Who's Who in America got the names of people who were
16 listed in Who's Who?
17 A You are referring to 1987?
18 Q Back then. We are going to get to later, later. But
19 I want to get back to when you first started out.
20 A Sure. Not to my best recollection, no.
21 Q Now, were you aware at the time there were many
22 different Who's Whos?
23 A No. 24 Q Were you aware that the company who published Who's 25 Who in America had other Who's Who publications?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4906 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes.
2 Q Were you aware if there were not many Who's Who,
3 there was at least more than one Who's Who; is that
4 correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Were you aware that there were other Who's Whos
7 published, besides those published by the company who
8 printed Who's Who in America?
9 A Not to the best of my knowledge in 1987, but soon
10 thereafter.
11 Q Now, when you did the test marketing, that was a
12 mailing; was it not?
13 A Correct.
14 Q Where did you get the names and addresses of the
15 people you mailed to?
16 A I don't have a clear recollection, sir.
17 Q Was it a mailing list?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And had you previously been involved in businesses in
20 which there were mailing lists used by you?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Is it fair to say in your work history you had had a
23 considerable experience of direct mail marketing? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Now, the test marketing you did
in 1987, did that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4907 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 consist of sending a bunch of solicitation letters to
2 people inviting them to be included in a Who's Who?
3 A In substance, yes.
4 Q And do you recall what Who's Who that was?
5 A I think we called it American Executives.
6 Q And was that test marketing successful in your
7 judgment?
8 A Sufficiently successful to continue the concept, yes,
9 sir.
10 Q Now, when you continued the concept, you continued it
11 with several different Who's Whos?
12 A Eventually.
13 Q And it was your plan at that point in time to utilize
14 mailing lists as a source of people; is that correct?
15 A At what point in time are you at, sir?
16 Q I will try to progress chronologically. So if there
17 is an ambiguity in my question point it out
to me, but
18 that's basically where I am going.
19 Right after your test marketing was successful,
20 your test mailing was successful, did you make a plan to
21 market Who's Whos?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q At that point was it just one Who's Who you were 24 going to market or a bunch? 25 A One, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4908 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q That's the one in U.S. Executives?
2 A American Executives.
3 Q Did you do that, sir?
4 A Yes.
5 Q American Executives?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And did you rent space for that purpose?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q Did you hire people for that purpose?
10 A Eventually.
11 Q At that point in time were you planning to have
12 in-person telephone -- withdrawn.
13 Was it your plan at that point in time to have
14 telephone interv
iews following the solicitation letter?
15 A What point in time are you at, sir?
16 Q The very beginning when you first started out, after
17 the test mailing?
18 A No.
19 Q And at that point everything was to be done by mail?
20 A That was my original thinking, yes.
21 Q And at a certain point in time you decided to have an
22 interview process as well; is that correct?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q And is that the point in time you hired people? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4909 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And at that point in time did you rent space for
2 them?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Did the people work out of their homes at that point
5 in time?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Where did they work?
8 A At 98 Cutter Mill Road.
9 Q You already had the space?
10 A Yes, si
r.
11 Q That's a commercial building?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And you had the space in connection with another
14 business you were operating?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q How many people did you hire initially?
17 A I think there were four or five initially.
18 Q And throughout, it was your plan to utilize mailing
19 lists to get names; is that correct?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q And you did so?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q Now, the mailing lists you got, were they somewhat 24 selective? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4910 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Can you explain the respects in which they were
2 selective?
3 A A person who was attempting to do a direct mail
4 campaign would normally utilize mailing lists that at
5 least seem to be consistent with the audience you are
6 trying to reach. That, however, is not always the case.
7 As an example, we used Forbes magazines. And it
8 is possible that a student could subscribe to Forbes
9 magazine. Therefore we tested many different lists at
10 various levels of success and various levels of accuracy.
11 We even found at one time there was a name of a
12 dog who subscribed to one of the magazines and was in our
13 mailings at Who's Who.
14 Q Had you ever heard that a dog managed to get into
15 Who's Who in America? Did you learn that along the way?
16 A Got into one of the Who's Whos.
17 Q One of the Marquis Who's Who?
18 A I don't know which one he got into.
19 Q You can continue your answers in terms of the
20 selectivity.
21 A Many lists were utilized, including Dun & Bradstreet,
22 many legal directories, accounting directories, there is a
23 data base called Chilton, C
H I L T O N, a magazine 24 publisher, a company called Cahners, C A H N E R S, we 25 utilized the American Association of female executives,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4911 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 and we learned from that list that many of the people in
2 that list in fact were not as represented, junior in
3 position. Many lists were utilized. We attempted to do
4 key coding, which is to determine the rate of response
5 from each mailing list.
6 Q Did you attempt to make your lists as selective as
7 possible within the parameters that you attempted to
8 target?
9 A Yes, for selfish and commercial reasons, yes, sir.
10 Q You didn't want to be sending -- you didn't want to
11 be wasting mail by sending it to people who would not be
12 interested or suitable for what you were doing; is that
13 correct?
14
A That is correct, sir.
15 Q At some point you branched beyond Who's Who in
16 American Executives, and you had other Who's Whos focussed
17 toward specific groups; is that correct?
18 A That is correct, sir.
19 Q One was Who's Who in law Enforcement; is that
20 correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And another was Who's Who in Government?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And Who's Who in practicing attorneys? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4912 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q I think you called it Steven's Who's Who in
2 Practicing Attorneys?
3 A We did it at a time to differentiate from other Who's
4 Whos.
5 Q In connection with your plan to sell the Who's Who
6 for these people, did you ever have a plan for other kind
7 of commercial ventures related to Who's Who?
8 A Would you define that.
9 Q
A sales catalogue.
10 A What time span?
11 Q I am trying to go chronologically. So I am trying to
12 go to the time you are branching out. You are now having
13 a Who's Who in Law Enforcement, a Who's Who in Practicing
14 Attorneys, Who's Who in Government?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Did all those three come at the same time?
17 A I don't have a recollection. A similar time period.
18 Q Around that time period were you planning to have
19 related ventures to the Who's Who?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And those would be the sale of merchandise?
22 A That was one of them, yes.
23 Q What were some of the others? 24 A Some of the others were providing a broad array of 25 services to the members, including the securing of venture
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4913 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 capital, the securing of job
opportunities, teaching them
2 how to be able to publish their own book, showing them how
3 to be able to earn money by doing speaking engagements,
4 and being able to earn both compensation and perform a
5 worth while service at the same time.
6 Q Is it fair to say at that point in time you sincerely
7 intended to fulfill those objectives?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And at that point in time you did not intend to
10 defraud anyone; is that correct?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Indeed, one of the Who's Who you targeted was Who's
13 Who in Law Enforcement?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And if you were setting out to what you perceived in
16 your mind to be a scheme to defraud, you would not
17 certainly select among all people a group of law
18 enforcement people; is that correct?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And also at that point in time you also had Who's Who
21 in Practi
cing Attorneys?
22 A Somewhere around that time period, sir.
23 Q Certainly you are aware that attorneys may be, not 24 necessarily, but may be not the most gullible people in 25 the world?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4914 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A It wouldn't be a proper adjective.
2 Q Attorneys are certainly a group of people who can
3 assert their rights and complain and would do that; is
4 that correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You would not have targeted them if at that point in
7 time you were conceiving in your mind that you were going
8 to operate a scheme to defraud; is that correct?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And is it fair to say that you started out with good
11 objectives?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Now, this was at a time when you were sending out
14 letters that said you have been nominated; is tha
t
15 correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And indeed the letter said you were nominated by
18 another member, sir?
19 A Not at that time.
20 Q It said you were nominated?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And in the telephone conversations that your
23 salespeople had with these people, they would be telling 24 them that they would be nominated by another member; is 25 that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4915 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A That is correct.
2 Q And you were aware of that; is that correct?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And you did not -- in fact, all of the leads that you
5 got, all of them, were coming from mailing lists; is that
6 correct?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q You did try a nomination by other members briefly; is
9 that correct?
10 A That is correct.
11 Q And that was not very suc
cessful; is that correct?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q And you didn't pursue that or attempt to develop it
14 or enlarge it, did you?
15 A Not aggressively, no.
16 Q And at this time when all this is happening, you did
17 not in your mind believe that you were acting with intent
18 to defraud; is that correct?
19 A At what time are you, sir?
20 Q Well, I will go back.
21 I was asking you some questions where you talked
22 about having good intentions, and you were planning to
23 develop related products. You were planning to sell the 24 Who's Who. You were targeting law enforcement people, 25 practicing attorneys.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4916 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 At that point in time, sir, you were utilizing
2 mailing lists; is that correct?
3 A Yes, sir. The time period you mentioned is e
arly
4 1990. That's where we are right now.
5 Q And you were not advising the people being targeted
6 by you that they were -- that their names had come from a
7 mailing list; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q That is correct?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q So --
12 A In general.
13 Q And at that point in time you believe that you were
14 not engaged in a scheme to defraud; is that correct?
15 A In early 1990, that is correct, sir.
16 Q So, utilizing mailing lists, telling people they were
17 nominated, and not disclosing to them that their names
18 came from a mailing list, was something which you believed
19 does not necessarily mean a scheme to defraud; is that
20 correct?
21 A What tense are you using, sir?
22 Q Believed?
23 A In early 1990, that's an accurate statement in my 24 ignorance, yes. 25 Q That was your mental state
at the time; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4917 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 correct?
2 A As of early 1990, correct.
3 Q You did not intend at that time to defraud anybody;
4 is that correct?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q Now, that is shown by the fact that you targeted law
7 enforcement people; is that correct?
8 A I believe so.
9 Q And practicing attorneys?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And the other people you targeted, executives, they
12 are a fairly sophisticated group on the whole as well; is
13 that correct?
14 A In general, yes.
15 Q Now, I think that you mentioned at a certain point in
16 time financial difficulties set in; is that right?
17 A That is correct.
18 Q And that is when problems with delivering merchandise
19 and directories came about; is that correct?
20 A T
hat's correct.
21 Q Now, your company was sued by Reed Elsevir; was it
22 not?
23 A That's my recollection, yes. 24 Q It is not something that is too hard to remember, is 25 it?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4918 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q You were sued by Marquis; is that correct?
3 A It was not Reed Elsevir at that time, yes, sir.
4 Q Okay.
5 A Uh-huh.
6 Q And is that when the financial difficulties started
7 in?
8 A I don't think they were correlated, sir.
9 Q And you had financial difficulties beginning --
10 withdrawn.
11 Certainly being sued by Reed Elsevir did not
12 help, did it?
13 A Actually it wasn't a significant issue at that time.
14 Q You had legal fees, did you not?
15 A They were not significant at that time.
16 Q In any event, the
financial difficulties you had was
17 not something of your own intent or plan; is that correct?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q And that is what put you in the position of taking
20 money from people and not delivering; is that correct?
21 A No.
22 MR. GEDULDIG: Judge, can we have a time frame as
23 to what time we are talking about now? 24 MR. TRABULUS: Sure. 25 Q When did the financial difficulties set in, sir?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4919 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A In mid-to late 1989.
2 Q In 1990 as you indicated you had sincere plans, and
3 you were delivering, and you were not acting with intent
4 to defraud at the time?
5 A Which part of 1990?
6 Q The time in which you said, quite early in 1990, the
7 time that you had the Who's Who of law enforcement, the
8 time you were planning to sell
merchandise, teach people
9 how to write books, obtain venture capital for people whom
10 you described as members. At that point in time, sir, you
11 did not have intent to defraud, sir?
12 A In my ignorance, that's true.
13 Q At the time you were not trying to defraud anybody?
14 You didn't believe you were?
15 A In my mind set, correct, at that time and point in
16 space.
17 Q And that's the time -- that's the time at which your
18 intent would be measured if you were to be judged for what
19 you were doing at that time; is that correct?
20 A Intent for that period of time, yes, sir.
21 Q Now, later on you had these financial difficulties,
22 sir; is that correct?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And the financial difficulties resulted in 25 merchandise not being deliveFF0000; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4920 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A To some extent.
2 Q It resulted -- your business had a catalogue, did it
3 not?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And is this Defendant's Exhibit AO?
6 (Handed to the witness.)
7 Q Excuse me, I am showing you AO. Is this one of the
8 catalogues that your company distributed?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And this --
11 MR. TRABULUS: I would offer AO in evidence, your
12 Honor.
13 THE COURT: Any objection?
14 MR. WHITE: I just need to see it, your Honor.
15 (Document handed to Mr. White.)
16 MR. WHITE: No objection.
17 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit AO, Abel Oboe, in
18 evidence.
19 (Defendant's Exhibit AO received in evidence.)
20 Q Mr. West, there were various items of merchandise in
21 that, that were offered for sale to people?
22 A That is correct.
23 Q And they weren't just offered f
or sale to people who 24 were in your Who's Whos; is that correct? 25 A That is correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4921 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q They were offered for sale to people in a broader
2 group; is that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q If they bought they would then be solicited by your
5 company?
6 A Not necessarily.
7 Q Some of them would be?
8 A Not necessarily.
9 Q Now, after your financial difficulties ensued, then
10 there came problems in delivering the merchandise?
11 A There was not extensive problem with the merchandise.
12 Q Is there not a potential problem where you failed to
13 order from your suppliers and failed to take money?
14 A Not extensively.
15 Q Did it happen?
16 A It happened, yes.
17 Q Were there numerous complaints by people ordering
18 merch
andise that were not being delivered?
19 A Numerous is not accurate, sir.
20 Q There were complaints concerning directories that
21 weren't being published?
22 A That is correct.
23 Q And is it correct that after the first of several 24 search warrants was executed, you rushed to get certain 25 directories in print, that hadn't been in print before
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4922 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 that?
2 A It is correct, we used every effort we could to get
3 them in print, yes. Rushed would not be a proper phrase.
4 Q Now, there came a point in time when you were
5 arrested and charged; is that correct?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q You pled guilty to various crimes I will not go over
8 in detail, such as mail fraud, mail fraud involving an
9 insurance company, tax fraud, also filing a false
10 sta
tement with the postal authorities; am I correct?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And besides those crimes do you believe you committed
13 any others in connection with this?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q You didn't commit perjury?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q So, when you were called upon to testify -- were you
18 called upon to testify in the case that Reed had brought?
19 A I don't believe I was a witness. I don't have a
20 recollection as to that.
21 Q Do you recall whether you were called upon to testify
22 as to whether or not you used mailing lists?
23 A I don't have a recollection of that. 24 Q In the course of that did you learn that Reed Elsevir 25 or Marquis used mailing lists?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4923 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A It was my understanding they used mailing lists. Not
2 in the course of that, but
in the general concept, yes.
3 Q You came to learn that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And they would also tell people they were nominated,
6 although the name came from a mailing list?
7 A To the best of my recollection, yes.
8 MR. NEVILLE: I am sorry, is that yes?
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: To the best of my recollection,
11 yes.
12 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you.
13 Q Did the government, did Mr. Biegelman ever ask you to
14 participate in an undercover investigation of Marquis
15 Who's Who?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Did you ever relate to him that the investigation of
18 Marquis Who's Who also uses mailing lists, and also tells
19 people they were nominated?
20 A My attorney may have related that to him. I don't
21 have a recollection of doing that.
22 Q Did you instruct your attorney to relate it to him?
23 A If he did so, it would be with my i
nstructions. 24 Q In any event, do you recall instructing your attorney 25 to do that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4924 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 A I don't have a clear recollection, sir.
2 Q And in your efforts to cooperate and render as much
3 assistance as you could, did you suggest to Inspector
4 Biegelman that perhaps you can do an undercover
5 investigation of Marquis Who's Who?
6 A I don't have a recollection of that.
7 Q Is it your recollection that you did not?
8 A I think so, but it is not clear.
9 Q Did you discuss with your attorney before as to
10 whether you should?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q Did anyone suggest to you that you should not?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Did Mr. Biegelman himself ever tell you that he
15 himself met with representatives of Reed Elsevir?
16 A No, sir.
17
Q Did anybody ever tell you that Mr. Biegelman met with
18 representatives of Reed Elsevir?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Did anybody ever tell you that it would be pointless
21 to suggest to Inspector Biegelman or any of the postal
22 inspectors to do an undercover investigation of Marquis
23 Who's Who because the postal inspectors simply wouldn't do 24 it? 25 A I believe I had a conversation with my attorney about
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4925 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 the possibility of that and it was a very minor
2 conversation. And his general impression was it would not
3 be a feasible investigation. But it was not an in-depth
4 conversation to the best of my recollection.
5 Q It was your understanding that your attorney had been
6 speaking directly to the postal inspectors; is that
7 correct?
8 A My unders
tanding, generally from time to time, yes.
9 Q Did your attorney give you an explanation as to that?
10 A We didn't have a long discussion about that.
11 Q Did you tell your attorney except for the
12 non-delivery, due to your financial difficulties,
13 everything they were complaining about about you could
14 have been said about Marquis Who's Who?
15 A I might have said that. In what period are you
16 speaking about time wise?
17 Q I guess it would be after you began cooperating, sir,
18 and I am not suggesting what period you would have had
19 that conversation. But you --
20 A It would have been much earlier, it would have been
21 in May or June of 1990.
22 Q So that would have been after the search warrant was
23 executed, but before they actually began -- before you 24 were actually criminally charged; is that correct? 25 A No, sir. May was prior to the
search warrant.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4926 Watstein-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Okay.
2 So, at that point in time, sir -- withdrawn.
3 Let me see if I understand you correctly.
4 Are you saying, sir, that your conversation with
5 your attorney to the effect that everything they were
6 saying about you could be said with equal force about
7 Marquis Who's Who, except for the non-delivery of
8 financial difficulties, and that was before the search
9 warrant?
10 A We had substantial conversations in May or June prior
11 to the search warrant, and that may have been veritably
12 the topic of the conversation.
13 Q That's after you learned there was a criminal
14 investigation, but before the search warrant was -- before
15 the search warrant was executed; is that correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And did you expre
ss to your attorney your belief of
18 what you were doing was not fraudulent?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And did your attorney concur in that at that point in