Trials That Should Not Have Happened
The Who's Who Debacle and Tragedy

Worst Lawyer Of All Time; - The Shameful Trial Against Who's Who
Thomas FX Dunn demonstrates some thirty-eight discrete reasons to qualify himself
over and again as perhaps the worst lawyer of all time


Trials To Be Ashamed Of


The Shameful Trial Against Who's Who -
Reed Elseiver Ripoff of Seventy-Four Thosuand Leaders and Role Models.

The largest executive club ever created. More than fifty-eight thousand members at the top.
CEO's and Presidents, Chairmen of the Boards of just about every major company in the U.S.
From the founder of the American Cancer Society and others like Georgette Mosbacher,
or the Chairmen of Coke, American Express, every major bank and stock exchangers,
a Presidential physician who personaifies the American Dream being worth it all.
Tens of thousands of accomplished people, all cheated by odiferous corruption,
all defrauded of their memberships by an egriously greedy postal inspector,
forever sealing the name of Martin Beigelman as the paradigm of nadirs,
possibly the single most corrupt Postal Inspector In USPS history.
Picture giving up your pension just a couple of years short,
because the payoff from Reid Elsevier was that huge.
Nope. Didn't even stick out a last couple of years,
wanting the immediate quintupling of salary.
So many... odious facts surround this case.
Your personal assistance is solicited.
A letter, an email, or a telegram,
or throw ten bucks at someone
maybe a quick phone call.
Free MisterShortcut.
Free the Who's Who'ers.


Reed Elsevier, Ltd, and its many hundreds of subsidiaries,
is the richest, most powerful and influential publisher on earth.

From the national phone book listing every lawyer in the US (who pay),
to science journals and seventeen or more Who's Who organizations,
the huge Lexis-Nexis or however the online jurggernaut is spelled,
with hugely expressed influence. Scores of powerful publications.
Their corruption of those in government service is legendary.
their actions so abhorrent the U.S. government banned them,
literally ordered them not to open any offices in the USA.
their influence continues to become more pernicious,
more pervasive, as their acquisitions continue.
This foreign corporation buys human beings.
Please, pick up that phone and get irate..
If you like, get angry first, then call.
Ask the Prez to issue a pardon,
please add your voice today.


PLEASE PUT A DENT IN THE PERVASIVE CORRUPTION IN GOVERNMENT!
If you allow them to do this to the Who's Who'ers today,
it's an open invitation for them to continue on this way.
This is just one of their vicious conquests among so many,
revealed in one of the Trials To Be Ashamed Of,
one of the dirtiest trials in federal history,
The Shameful Trial Against Who's Who.
Call Congress, call the White House.
Demand a pardon for the Who's Who-ers.
Please.     Call today.


(Reed Elsevier has been "pagewaxing" many Who's Who sites, which means illegally erasing them,
so the effort was engendered to create many hundreds of different versions, and upload them to hundreds of separate websites.
So, if you find dead links, you have a few mirror sites linked to each of the primary Who's Who Registry sites)

Who's Who Mirror Site 1       Who's Who Mirror 2       Who's Who 3       Who's Who 4       Who's Who 5       Who's Who Mirror 6     

Trials To Be Ashamed Of



There are now hundreds of huge websites with the full story of The Shameful Trial Against Who's Who,
a necessary action because of the illicit and undeniably reprehensible actions of Reed Elsevier, Ltd.

Each "Trials To Be Ashamed Of" website contains more than 12,000 printable pages,
detailing how a handful of salespeople, each with a life and story all their own,
had everything taken from them by raw, base corruption in this great land.
Reed Elsevier, Ltd, and its hundreds and hundreds of subsidiaries,
is the richest, most powerful and influential publisher on earth.


Their corruption of those in government service is legendary.
This is just one of their vicious conquests among so many,
revealed in one of the Trials To Be Ashamed Of,
one of the dirtiest trials in federal history,
The Shameful Trial Against Who's Who.
Call Congress, call the White House.
Demand a pardon for the Who's Who-ers.
Please.     Call today.





                                                          Masters and Millionaires

5113
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, : CR 96 1016(S-1)
4 v. : U.S. Courthouse
5 Uniondale, New York BRUCE W. GORDON, WHO'S WHO
6 WORLD WIDE REGISTRY, INC., : STERLING WHO'S WHO, INC.,
7 TARA GARBOSKI, ORAL FRANK : OSMAN, LAURA WEITZ, ANNETTE
8 HALEY, SCOTT MICHAELSON, : and MARTIN
9 REFFSIN, :    TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL
10 Defendants. :February 20, 1998
11 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 1:30 o'clock p.m.

12 BEFORE:

13 HONORABLE ARTHUR D. SPATT, U.S.D.J. and a jury
14 APPEARANCES:
15 For the Government: ZACHARY W. CARTER
16 United States Attorney One Pierrepont Plaza
17 Brooklyn, New York 11201
By: RONALD G. WHITE, ESQ.
18 CECIL SCOTT, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorneys
19 For the Defendants: NORM AN TRABULUS, ESQ.
20 For Bruce W. Gordon
170 Old Country Road, Suite 600
21 Mineola, New York 11501

22 EDWARD P. JENKS, ESQ.
For Who's Who Worldwide
23 Registry, Inc. and
Sterling Who's, Who, Inc.
24 332 Willis Avenue
Mineola, New York 11501
25
(cont'd)


HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5114

1 APPEARANCES (cont'd):

2 GARY SCHOER, ESQ. For Tara Garboski
3 6800 Jericho Turnpike
Syosset, New York 11791
4
ALAN M. NELSON, ESQ.
5 For Oral Frank Osman
3000 Marcus Avenue
6 Lake Success, New York 11042

7 WINSTON LEE, ESQ.
For Laura Weitz
8 319 Broadway
New York, New York 10007
9
MARTIN GEDULDIG, ESQ.
10 For Annette Haley
400 South Oyster Bay Road
11 Hicksville, New York 11801

12 JAMES C. NEVILLE, ESQ.
For Scott Michaelson
13 225 Broadway
New York, New York 10007
14
THOMAS F.X. DUNN, ESQ.
15 For Mr Shortcuts,
150 Nassau Street
16 New York, New York 10038

17 JOHN S. WALLENSTEIN, ESQ.
For Martin Reffsin 18 215 Hilton Avenue
Hempstead, New York 11551
19

20 Court Reporter: HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR
United States District Court
21 Two Uniondale Avenue
Uniondale, New York 11553
22 (516) 485-6558

23
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript
24 produced by Computer-Assisted Transcription
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5115

1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

2

3 (The following takes place in the absence of the

4 jury.)

5 THE COURT: Good afternoon.

6 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, good afternoon.

7 I want to put one thing on the record.

8 THE COURT: Sure.

9 Where is Mr. Wallenstein? Where is

10 Mr. Geduldig?

11 Someone go out to get them.

12 MR. TRABULUS: While they are doing that, I have

13 a Rule 17 subpoena, Rule 17(b) and (c) subpoena that I ask

14 you to sign.

15 THE COURT: Is everybody here now?

16 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Mr. Lee is on his way down.

17 THE CLERK: Geduldig is still missing.

18 THE COURT: You can all sit down.

19 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the

20 proceedings.)

21 THE COURT: I am signing this subpoena. However,

22 it calls for information which may not be admissible at

23 the trial. It calls for mailing lists that were used by
24 Marquis Who's Who, in essence.
25 MR. TRABULUS: I was not trying to introduce the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5116

1 mailing lists themselves, just reference to their use.

2 THE COURT: Whatever, records or otherwise, I

3 don't know if it is admissible in this trial.

4 You better get some author ity that says because

5 other people may commit frauds, I can do it, or that it is

6 custom and usage in the industry to make these

7 misrepresentations -- alleged misrepresentations.

8 MR. TRABULUS: That's the line I was thinking

9 about.

10 THE COURT: I have concern about that. It is

11 custom and usage in the home improvement line to make

12 fraudulent bank loans. Does that make it admissible in

13 the trial and acceptable practice? Because the practice

14 itself is not legal, why should it be admissible.

15 In other words, is it a defense?

16 You better get some law on that. And here is the

17 subpoena.

18 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.

19 THE COURT: Where is Mr. Geduldig?

20 I am going into the jurors and thank them that

21 they are here on time, and tell them I have held everybody

22 up.

23 Don't strike me down.
24 Any objection?

25 MR. TRABULUS: No.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5117

1 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you, your Honor.

2 MR. JENKS: Thank you; no.

3 MR. WHITE: No objection.

4 (The following takes place in the jury room.)

5 THE COURT: How nice to see all of you together

6 in this spacious, ample room, where you can have all the

7 space.

8 I have been tied up in something, and I will be

9 tied up a few more minutes. I want to thank you for being

10 prompt and punctual. Forgive me of keeping you waiting

11 for this period of time. I wanted to say hello to you and

12 welcome you again. I am very happy to have you.

13 A JUROR: We are happy to be here.

14 THE COURT: Good.

15

16 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes

17 place in open court.)

18 THE COURT: Good afternoon, Mr. Geduldig.

19 MR. GEDULD IG: I apologize, Judge. I think this

20 is the first time I have ever been late, and it is today,

21 which is particularly bad.

22 THE COURT: The jurors buzzed at 25 after 1:00

23 that they were here and ready to go. We should be here
24 before time. I will not lecture. I am not a school
25 teacher, but because of the number of people, especially,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5118

1 it is important to be here on time. I don't like to keep

2 the jurors waiting. They are a very dedicated group.

3 They are entitled to this kind of courtesy.

4 MR. GEDULDIG: They are, Judge.

5 THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

6 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, earlier this week your

7 Honor asked the government to produce to the defense any

8 tapes Mr. West made in connection with the Garden City

9 hotel, in connection with the Oxford Who's Who

10 investigation. We retrieved that file from the closed

11 file of the postal inspection. We have the tapes. We

12 have a copy made for each of the defense attorneys. From

13 the way it looks, the sounds of things, Mr. West will be

14 here on Monday in any event.

15 THE COURT: Have you turned it over to them?

16 MR. WHITE: We just picked it up.

17 THE COURT: At a break show them what you have.

18 MR. WHITE: The one thing I wanted to ad was that

19 the tapes were all contained in the Oxford Who's Who file,

20 which was the enclosed files.

21 Some of them were either mislabeled or misfiled,

22 and in addition to Oxford employees, there are some people

23 on the tape who were former Worldwide employees as well.
24 THE COURT: Which you didn't know about?
25 MR. WHITE: Which I didn't know about. And I

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5119

1 listened to it last night at midnight.

2 THE COURT: You are now definitely turning it

3 over?

4 MR. WHITE: Of course.

5 MR. SCHOER: Tapes we have not seen?

6 MR. WHITE: Yes.

7 THE COURT: You will have an opportunity to see

8 them, certainly over the weekend, if not today. And you

9 can use it over the weekend if you wish.

10 MR. WHITE: Nothing pertaining to these

11 defendants.

12 MR. TRABULUS: Any other 3500 material relating

13 to Mr. West that might have been in that file other than

14 tapes? Things may be 3500 material relating to his own

15 business, or the tapes which we know now which is Who's

16 Who Worldwide?

17 MR. WHITE: The tapes were kept separate from the

18 paper files. The paper files are on their way. They were

19 separate. I understand they are not related, because

20 anything relating to We st, was in the West Who's Who file,

21 not the Oxford file.

22 THE COURT: You didn't know anything about that

23 until now?
24 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor, and I was quite
25 perturbed.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5120

1 THE COURT: You are turning it over?

2 MR. WHITE: Yes.

3 THE COURT: Let me ask, are you students back

4 there?

5 A SPECTATOR: Yes.

6 THE COURT: What school are you from?

7 A SPECTATOR: Tuoro Law School.

8 MR. TRABULUS: The young man with the necktie is

9 my son. He wanted to see a portion of the trial. He has

10 the week off.

11 THE COURT: He is in Tuoro Law School?

12 MR. TRABULUS: No, he is in high school.

13 THE COURT: A future lawyer?

14 MR. TRABULUS: Maybe.

15 MR. JENKS: I can't believe he made him wear a

16 tie.

17 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the

18 courtroom.)

19 THE COURT: Formally, and for the record, good

20 afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I have already greeted

21 you and expressed my admiration for your dedication in

22 this trial, which is above and beyond.

23 You may proceed.
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5121

1 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N,

2 called as a witness, having been previously

3 duly sworn, was examined and testified as

4 follows:

5

6 THE COURT: You are previously sworn and you are

7 still under oath, Mr. Watstein.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes.

9 THE COURT: Mr. Geduldig, were you still

10 cross-examining?

11 MR. GEDULDIG: I think I was, Judge.

12 THE COURT: You are going to move along, right?

13 MR. GEDULDIG: I am.

14

15 CROSS-EXAMINATION (con t'd)

16 BY MR. GEDULDIG:

17 Q Mr. Watstein, I think we had given you a copy of the

18 transcript we were looking at the other day?

19 A Yes.

20 Q I have handed up to you 1325, which is the transcript

21 of the conversation you had with Annette Haley on November

22 11th, 1994. If memory serves me correctly, where we

23 finished off yesterday, we were going through whether or
24 not a delicatessen owner was sufficiently prestigious to
25 be in the registry.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5122
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Do you remember that?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q What I would like to do now is turn to page 9 of the

4 transcript.

5 I stand corrected, turn to page -- did we speak

6 about -- did you have a conversation with Ms. Haley on

7 this occasion concerning the benefits you would get as a

8 prosp ective member?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q And we read that attribution at the very bottom of

11 page 6, where Annette tells you about the discounts on

12 long distance and international phone calls and such?

13 A I believe so.

14 Q Now, turn to page 7, a quarter of the way down, right

15 after you say, yeah, where there is an attribution to

16 Annette, where she says to you: But let me tell you, for

17 a five-year membership, it's $350 now.

18 Watstein, right.

19 Annette, and $99 in December of 1995 when the

20 registry is released.

21 You see that?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q This conversation is November of 1994; is that
24 correct?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5123
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Q She is telling you, you pay 350 now and an additional

2 $99 in approximately 13 months; is t hat right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And it goes on.

5 Watstein, so, 350 and 99 --

6 Annette, you'll be in there until the year 2000.

7 Watstein, that's pretty good.

8 Annette, or if you want to be in there for the

9 rest of the your life, that's $550 now.

10 Watstein, I think five years is sufficient.

11 Annette, and $99 in December.

12 Watstein, gotcha.

13 You used that phrase a lot, gotcha?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q Were you sending a little subliminal message to these

16 people on the phone?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q And you go on with some of the benefits right after

19 the gotcha. Annette says: With the lifetime you will

20 have a choice of a second wall plaque or the CD-ROM

21 software package. It comes free with the lifetime.

22 Watstein, oh, I see.

23 Annette, otherwise, it's $99. If you buy it with
24 the five year it would be $99 .
25 Watstein, oh, I see, for $100 more I get the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5124
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 lifetime and --

2 Annette, exactly. And you'll get the CD-ROM with

3 it.

4 Watstein, so, lifetime is $550, plus $99?

5 Annette, $99 in December of 1995.

6 Watstein, gotcha.

7 You see that?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q She is telling you about the split billing, right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q You understood she was talking about split billing,

12 right?

13 A Not as it is defined, but, yes, sir.

14 Q There were going to be two payments?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q And she was telling you, if you joined and took the

17 five-year membership, the fee would be, I think she said

18 $550, plus 99, plus an additional charge if you wanted the

19 CD-ROM?

20 A That's correct, sir.

21 Q Okay.

22 She was telling you if you took the lifetime you

23 would get the CD-ROM for free, or an additional plaque if
24 you chose?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5125
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Q That was pretty clear?

2 A I think it was crystal clear, yes, sir.

3 Q Then you go on to a conversation about renewal rates

4 on page 8, virtually in the middle of the page, right

5 after Annette's uh-huh; do you see that?

6 A Uh-huh, yes.

7 Q And Annette says -- I lost it -- she says uh-huh.

8 Watstein, what's your renewal rate? How happy

9 are the members?

10 Annette, everybody.

11 Watstein, everybody renews?

12 Annette, everybody, in fact we do give the

13 people, say they take a five year membership.

14 Watstein, right.

15 Annette, within a year or two, we give them the

16 option of upgrading to a lifetime.

17 Watstein, right.

18 Annette, I would say 85 percent do.

19 Watstein, really?

20 Annette, yep?

21 Watstein, so you would say that in terms of the

22 renewal rate, 95 percent, 100 percent.

23 You saw that?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q And she said to you the renewal rate was 85 percent,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5126
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 didn't she?

2 A No, sir.

3 Q Well, she said to you, just above that -- go from the

4 bottom where it is you, Watstein, from the bottom up,

5 Watstein, Annette, Watstein, Annette, all right? So it is

6 the fourth attribution from the bottom. You see that?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Annette says, I would say 85 percent do; do you see

9 that?

10 A I believe it modifies --

11 Q I am asking you if you see it?

12 A Certainly.

13 Q And the next two attributions are just one word.

14 You say really.

15 She says, yep.

16 Then you come in, Watstein, so you would say that

17 in terms of the renewal rate, 95 percent to 100 percent.

18 On the next page Annette says 85 percent, right?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q And you heard her when you were talking with her on

21 the phone that day, November 11th, 1994, you heard her say

22 85 percent, did you not?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And you responded by saying 95 to 100 percent; is
25 that right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5127
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q Were you trying to mislead her?

3 A No.

4 Q Was there a reason that you purposefully misstated

5 the number she gave you?

6 A Yes.

7 Q You were trying to gotcha her?

8 A No, sir.

9 Q And in any event, after you say 95 to 100 percent,

10 she corrects you and says 85 percent.

11 By the way, when you up that percentage, you

12 specifically mentioned renewal. You said, so you would

13 say in terms the renewal rate, 95 to 100 percent; correct?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q She corrects you to 85 percent; right?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q She doesn't say to you you are talking about

18 something different than I'm talking about, does she?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q She says 85 percent.

21 Watstein says 85 percent?

22 Annette, yeah.

23 Watstein, wow, that's really good.
24 Annette, renew their member -- in other words,
25 not even renew it, they, umm.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5128
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Watstein, they pay their dues --

2 THE COURT: You have to slow down, Mr. Geduldig.

3 You have to go much slower than that.

4 First of all, if someone was following you

5 without reading the transcript, as anybody can, they would

6 have a difficult time doing that. Is the reporter

7 certainly is having difficulty.

8 MR. GEDULDIG: I apologize.

9 THE COURT: You have to slow down. You want the

10 jury to hear it and understand it?

11 MR. GEDULDIG: I have been talking to

12 Mr. Trabulus too long. The two of us go, and it is wind.

13 THE COURT: When he is asked to, he does slow

14 down.

15 MR. GEDULDIG: And I will try, judgment I

16 apologize.

17 Let me pick it up with Watstein saying wow,

18 that's really good?

19 Annette, renew their number -- I am sorry,

20 member. In other words, not even renew it, they, umm --

21 Watstein, they pay their dues or whatever?

22 Annette, yeah, huh, they upgrade to a life time.

23 Watstein, no kidding.
24 Annette, yeah, we given them the choice to
25 upgrade to a lifetime and almost everybody does.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5129
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Watstein, 85 percent?

2 Annette, I would say at least.

3 Watstein, so maybe I should go for a lifetime up

4 front here, I guess.

5 Annette, well, it's up to you.

6 Do you see that?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q So, she is not even encouraging you to take the

9 lifetime. She is saying to you, do whatever you want to

10 do, it is your choice, right?

11 A That was the tactic, sir, yes.

12 Q She wasn't putting any high pressure on you?

13 A A tactic, yes.

14 Q She didn't say, a great idea, buy the lifetime, soak

15 some more money into this operation, did she?

16 A No, sir.

17 Q She said your choice, w hatever you decide, you do,

18 right?

19 A Her tactic, sir.

20 Q Tactic.

21 Did you ever hear mention from the government or

22 anybody else about a man named Tinny, gray haired man

23 working for Grossman -- I am sorry, Swinney,
24 S W I N N E Y.
25 A There was a gentleman in the witness room with me

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5130
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 yesterday, might have been the same gentleman, with gray

2 hair.

3 Q Did he tell you he upgraded?

4 A No, sir.

5 Q He wasn't forced to, he did it on his own?

6 A I have no knowledge of it.

7 Q Upgrading is what she is talking about here, people

8 upgrade?

9 A She is discussing two concepts at the same time, sir.

10 Q Then we go on on the same page in the middle, you are

11 talking, and you say as follows: Yeah, I see.

12 And what does this plaque look like?

13 Before we go on there, had you seen the plaque

14 before you made the phone calls?

15 A I am not sure.

16 Q You can't recall now if you have seen the plaque?

17 A I can't recall.

18 Q You saw the plaque, you just can't recall when you

19 saw it?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q In any event, you go on to say, yeah, I see, and what

22 does this plaque look like? We had a terrible experience

23 here.
24 Annette, the plaque is beautiful. The plaque is
25 really beautiful. It's a marble laminate. It has our

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5131
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 seal on it, it would be engaged. It would say, awarded to

2 Chuck C. Sampson, distinguished member of Who's Who

3 Worldwide.

4 Watstein, right.

5 Annette, the member named above is included in

6 the Who's Who Registry.

7 Watstein, right.

8 Annette, and at the bottom of the wall plaque it

9 says: Memberships are limited to those individuals who

10 have demonstrated outstanding leadership and achievement

11 in their occupation, industry or profession. We get

12 letters on it.

13 Watstein, so it's made -- Annette, the wall

14 plaque is beautiful.

15 Watstein, it's made out of marble?

16 Do you see that?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q If you go up to where she starts talking about the

19 plaque, about a third of the way up from the bottom, she

20 says the plaque is beautiful, it's really beautiful, it's

21 a marble laminate. You heard her say that?

22 A I don't believe so. There was a pause in the tape at

23 that time.
24 Q It doesn't say pause in the tape?
25 A In the sound.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COUR T REPORTER
5132
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Q A pause in the sound?

2 A Yes.

3 Q You remember the conversation clearly enough now to

4 say there is a pause in the sound over the telephone,

5 that's why you didn't hear marble laminate?

6 A In that particular case, yes, sir.

7 Q It wouldn't be that you were trying to mislead

8 Annette to say, yes, it is a marble plaque?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q You wouldn't do that?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q It would be a gotcha, where you hear what they say

13 but misrepresent what they say, encouraging them to leads

14 you on to do things that you wouldn't want to do?

15 A Is that a question, sir?

16 Q Yes.

17 A The answer is no.

18 Q You didn't do that.

19 So, you didn't hear her say marble laminate, and

20 you said it was made out of marble by mistake, because you

21 had not heard wha t Annette told you?

22 A My recollection is it wasn't clear, sir.

23 Q In any event, Annette having heard you say that it's
24 marble, she corrects you at the top of page 10 and says,
25 no, it's a marble laminate.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5133
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Watstein, oh, I see.

2 Annette, marble would be too heavy to hang.

3 Watstein, I gotcha.

4 Annette, yeah, it's a marble laminate, it's

5 beautiful.

6 Watstein gotcha.

7 You see that?

8 A Yes.

9 Q She went back and corrected you?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And she didn't want to mislead you?

12 A In that instance, yes.

13 Q Going on the same page 10, talking about networking.

14 Watstein, these are all things by the way,

15 networking, plaques, the double-billing or B billing,

16 these are all things on the long ch ecklist that you and

17 Biegelman worked out; is that right?

18 A I can't answer it with a yes or no, sir.

19 Q There was a long list of things we spoke about

20 yesterday, topics you want to bring up in these telephone

21 conversations, you recall that?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And these things we are going through the tape, the
24 transcript now, those things appear in the long list that
25 you and I talked about yesterday?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5134
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 A Partially.

2 Q I think everyone was on that list.

3 In any event, let's go on.

4 Watstein then says about a quarter of the way

5 down the page, starting after your last gotcha.

6 Annette, and every year it's a little different.

7 Watstein, umm, now let me ask you this: In terms

8 of networking, which is really what the reason I called

9 you back --

10 Annette.

11 That computer package is the best. Now, say you

12 want to know every member in Michigan --

13 A place you are familiar with.

14 Watstein, right.

15 Annette, it would come up. Say you want to know

16 all the CFO's.

17 Watstein, right.

18 Annette, or say you may, don't want to go to the

19 CFOs, say you want to know all the directors that are in

20 Michigan.

21 Watstein, right.

22 Annette, okay. They would all come up. Then you

23 want to zero into a certain area. I want to know all the
24 areas in Michigan that are in the plastics industry. I
25 want to know then, the next one, I want to know all the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5135
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 members that are in Michigan, that are in the plastics

2 industry, that make plastic screws, cause --

3 Watstein, really? No kidding.

4 Annette, different items. There could be plastic

5 bread boxes, plastic furniture. You want somebody that

6 makes screws. Then say you want to talk business on the

7 golf course. I want to know all the members that are

8 directors in Michigan that make plastic screws that play

9 golf.

10 Watstein, I see.

11 Annette, so you can zero in by any criteria with

12 that computer package. You know, how a CD-ROM works.

13 Watstein, oh, oh, sure, of course, of course.

14 She is explaining to you the CD-ROM?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And that's the item if you took the five-year

17 membership, you have to pay the $50 for and get free with

18 the five-year membership?

19 A All right.

20 Q Then you go to the other items we talked about the

21 other day, sucker mailing list.

22 You say at the top of page 1 1.

23 Watstein, let me ask you, in terms of the members
24 in general, am I going to end up on some kind of sucker
25 mailing list here?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5136
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Annette, no. It is not in libraries, and

2 hopefully, you are not going to, but our members do get,

3 and receive a registry.

4 Let me stop for a second.

5 When you ran your Who's Who, you told prospective

6 customers that your book was in libraries, didn't you?

7 A That is correct.

8 Q And this Who's Who was telling people honestly,

9 truthfully and accurately, that their Who's Who was not in

10 libraries; is that right?

11 A I can't answer with a yes or no, sir.

12 Q That's what Annette just told you, didn't she?

13 A That individual person said that, yes.

14 Q You are saying Annette might say it this w ay and

15 someone else might say it a different way?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q You go on, you say, well, the members, I don't mind.

18 Annette, every single person, we have Fortune

19 500, million dollar companies here. Everybody has to be

20 interviewed to be in this registry. Not one person. And

21 there are people you read about in the media, names that

22 you know, companies that you know, they weren't in here

23 unless they were interviewed.
24 Watstein, so even the famous people get
25 interviewed.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5137
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Annette, yeah, everybody.

2 Watstein, really?

3 Annette, everybody.

4 Watstein, let me ask, in terms, so you're not

5 going to rent my name out to someone else?

6 Annette, no, definitely not.

7 Watstein, okay, okay, I just --

8 Annette, our organize -- no.

9 Watstein, we've had some bad experience being

10 telemarketed, people hocking us.

11 You were referring to your own company, I

12 suppose?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q That's the kind of things you did?

15 A We were engaged in telemarketing business in many

16 companies.

17 Q You were engaged in a criminal telemarketing

18 business?

19 A At that point in time, yes.

20 Q Annette goes on.

21 What can I say to you? If we do have a member --

22 Watstein, member, I don't worry about, cause they

23 will have been interviewed.
24 Annette, yeah, but, no, of course not, definitely
25 not, not with people we have, no.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5138
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Now, when she says what can I say to you if, if

2 we do have a member, and then you cut her o ff.

3 What she was going to tell you is members could

4 conceivably use the names and addresses in the registry

5 and do it as they will, but her company does not sell the

6 names of the members in the registry to outside mailing

7 lists; isn't that right?

8 A Is that a question, sir?

9 Q Yes, is that right?

10 A Was she asking me that, implying that?

11 Q She was about to say that to you when you cut her

12 off?

13 A I don't know what she was about to say.

14 Q You cut her off?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Do you remember that clearly, cutting her off?

17 A Not totally, no, sir.

18 Q You remember the other part about the marble laminate

19 wall?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q My question is:

22 When you heard the information coming out of

23 mouth of a telemarketer, like Annette Haley, and knew the
24 conversation was being recorded, and you knew you wouldn't
25 like what they were going to say because it wasn't going

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5139
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 to be a gotcha, did you purposefully interrupt the

2 conversation so they would not say the things that you did

3 not want to hear?

4 A No, under any circumstances, sir.

5 Q There was nobody listening to you. Mr. Biegelman was

6 not at your shoulder listening to these conversations when

7 you were having these tape recorded conversations, was he?

8 A No, sir.

9 Q You did it completely on your own?

10 A With the exception of one tape, yes, sir.

11 Q So you sat in a room someplace in Georgia, Florida,

12 or New Jersey, where you happened to be by yourself making

13 these calls?

14 A That's correct, sir.

15 Q And then we go on to seminars, another item on the

16 list.

17 Q This is almost the bottom of the page?

18 A What page?

19 Q Page 11, after the last attribution where Annette

20 said they don't sell the names to outside mailing lists.

21 Watstein, I see.

22 One other question, in terms of getting together

23 with other members -- Annette, yeah, we have business
24 seminars, we had one in December in Vietnam and Hong Kong.
25 Watstein, right.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5140
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Annette, we, we were having one, I think. I

2 didn't hear anything about it, but I am sure it was a

3 success in South Carolina. We had a golf and tennis

4 tournament combined with some business seminars. So we

5 always have something.

6 Watstein, oh, really?

7 When was the one in South Carolina. That one I

8 would have attended.

9 And that 's a subject that you and Biegelman had

10 some discussions about, right?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q In any event, Annette goes on and says, yeah, that

13 was --

14 Watstein, Vietnam is too far for me.

15 Annette, months ago, it was months ago.

16 Watstein, months ago?

17 Annette, no, it was months ago. But I know

18 they're going to be having, you know, when you get that

19 quarterly magazine --

20 You say right.

21 Annette, always read that over. All the

22 information would be in there.

23 Do you see that?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q And she is telling you the information regarding

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5141
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 seminars and business conferences and golf outings is

2 printed in the publication, Tribute?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And that's where you get your infor mation, and she

5 gets her information?

6 A She didn't say that, sir.

7 Q Didn't she say read over the publication, the

8 magazine? She says, no, it was months ago, but I know

9 they are going to be having, you know, when you get that

10 quarterly magazine? She is talking about the Tribute

11 Magazine, right?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 THE COURT: You interrupt and she says always

14 read that over. All that information would be in there.

15 Isn't she referring to the seminars where the

16 company holding information about the seminars being

17 printed in the quarterly magazine?

18 A As far as me obtaining my information, yes, sir.

19 Q You don't know if she got the information from the

20 same place or not?

21 A That is correct, sir.

22 Q The information she gave you about the seminars could

23 well have come from the magazines?
24 A Possibl y.
25 Q You go on talking about famous people.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5142
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Watstein says, would it list some of the famous

2 people that are members there?

3 Annette, oh, yeah.

4 We have been doing a profile on 25 outstanding

5 members, umm, with their picture, you know, people that

6 maybe have started businesses, that really have

7 outstanding stories. Although we do have the president of

8 Izod -- although we do have the president of Izod, we have

9 the president of Viacom, you know, major, major companies.

10 Watstein, and all those people -- Annette, I'm

11 not supposed to be telling you those names, because it's

12 like marketing, or soliciting.

13 Watstein, no, we don't want you to do that.

14 That was a little tongue and cheek, right? You

15 really did want her to do that?

16 A No, sir. I previously testified to that.

17 Q Annette says, but you will see for yourself.

18 Watstein, but all those people were interviewed

19 by in the same fashion?

20 Annette, yeah.

21 Watstein, no kidding.

22 Annette, everybody had to be interviewed in order

23 to be in the registry.
24 You see that?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5143
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Q And going over to page 13, there is a conversation

2 where she is asking you for some personal information

3 about maybe a fifth, 20 percent, or a quarter of the way

4 down from the top of the page, Annette starts talking and

5 she says, all right, let me just go over a few more things

6 and then you can call me back with the credit number.

7 Watstein, sure.

8 Annette, do you want the lifetime?

9 Watstein, yes, please.

10 Annette, okay, all right. It's Chuck C. Sampson,

11 all right? I'll get the address later, but right now I

12 need the name of a famous business magazine. She coughs.

13 You see how she coughs there, they write it in?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And the parts about the pause you say about the

16 marble plaque, there was no cough there?

17 A I have the voice going down lower, sir.

18 Q Nothing in the transcripts about a malfunction or

19 pause or lowered voice?

20 A My recollection is it was lowered sir.

21 Q Going back to the page, we can look it up.

22 Watstein goes back to the say -- Watstein goes on

23 to say, I guess the Detroit Free Press is the closest I
24 come to.
25 Annette, excuse me?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5144
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Watstein, Detroit Free Pres s.

2 Annette that's --

3 Watstein, newspaper.

4 Annette.

5 Watstein says Detroit Free Press.

6 Annette, that's --

7 Watstein, a newspaper.

8 Annette, a newspaper.

9 Watstein, newspaper, yes.

10 Annette says, no, I wanted a magazine.

11 Watstein, you know, I really don't read any

12 business magazines. To tell you the truth -- Annette,

13 Success, Incorporated, CEO --

14 Watstein, put down whatever you want. Make it

15 up.

16 You wanted her to do that, didn't you?

17 A It had no importance, sir.

18 Q Of course it does. She puts it down, she is making

19 something up, it is just a shill, meaningless no, merit?

20 A No, sir, it is not a significant issue which magazine

21 a person read.

22 Q Why didn't you just give a magazine?

23 A Unimportant.
24 Q If we are trying to show how meaningless the registry

25 is, pointless the interview is, wouldn't it prove your

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5145
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 point if she asks for your favorite magazine, if you say

2 make it up, I don't care, and she does it?

3 A I don't think so.

4 Q You don't think so?

5 A No.

6 Q You didn't think to give her any magazine at all?

7 A Not in this case, it was unimportant.

8 Q You were not trying to gotcha, were you?

9 A No.

10 Q In any event, in response to what might be a

11 deceptive act on your part, she says, Fortune.

12 You say put down whatever you want. Make it up.

13 She continues, and says Fortune?

14 You say, you? And Annette says Fortune.

15 Watstein says, sure, make it up, sure.

16 You are insisting she make it up, right? You

17 will not let it go, will you?

18 A Sir, it was ins ignificant, a waste of time.

19 Q Give her a magazine, make it up, Newsweek, the

20 Wharton Business Record or something?

21 A There is no such thing.

22 Q A good reason to give it. That's what you were in

23 the business of, making things up?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q Annette says, sure you can make it up, sure.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5146
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 She says I also need the name of a favorite

2 vacation place.

3 You respond, Iron Ridge in Oak, Michigan, is that

4 right?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And she takes some more information from you.

7 This is a conversation you were recording for

8 Mr. Biegelman?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q You were going to write a critique or summary of the

11 circumstances surrounding this tape recorded conversation

12 and send it along with the tape to Mr. B iegelman?

13 A Not necessarily, sir.

14 Q Did you do it in this case?

15 A I have no recollection.

16 Q In any event, you hit virtually all the subjects that

17 you and I discussed, and you said were subject that you

18 were particularly interested in, right?

19 A You said that, sir.

20 Q Well, if I am wrong, say I am wrong.

21 We talked the other day about a list of subjects

22 that you like to bring up in these recorded conversations;

23 is that right?
24 A Part of the subjects, yes, sir.
25 Q And the subjects we mentioned were the percentage

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5147
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 accepted; is that right?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q And that was discussed here?

4 A I don't recall that.

5 Q The 85 percent, the five percent of the people who

6 were accepted, something l ike that?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q And 85 percent renewal rate? We talked about that in

9 this conversation?

10 A Not on that list, sir.

11 Q Let's go down the list. We only hit one so far?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q And we talked how people are nominated?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q How people are in business?

16 A I don't believe we discussed that.

17 Q Is Who's Who Worldwide Financial stable, not

18 discussed in this tape?

19 A Right.

20 Q Was everybody interviewed was discussed?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q The plaque made of marble, was discussed?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Benefits received was discussed?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5148
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 Q Is it prestigious, was discussed?

2 A I am not sure it was.

3 Q Remember, deli owners don't belong in the regis ter?

4 A I don't know if we discussed it was prestigious.

5 Q Is that what you said, I am not going to find my name

6 here with a deli owner?

7 A I didn't phrase it that way.

8 Q Wasn't that conversation in this tape recording?

9 A Deli owner and prestige are two different words, sir.

10 Q I know that, you can't shine a light on it. You have

11 to be a little clever about it? You can't say to Annette

12 during the course of the tape recorded conversation,

13 listen, I am recording the conversation, I would like to

14 talk about how prestigious the list is, you did it in a

15 more subtle way?

16 A Not so, but one can think that.

17 Q When you said, I will not find my name among a bunch

18 of deli owners, what did you imply?

19 A Other causes of prestige, useless reference value,

20 for example.

21 Q I will let you explain useless reference value when

22 Mr. White asks you questions.

23 You discussed split billing with Annette?
24 A Yes, sir. Is that on my list?
25 Q I am reading the list to you, I can assure you.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5149
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 We talked about networking, that's in the

2 conversation?

3 A Yes.

4 Q We talked about seminars, and that's in here?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q And what we have here is Annette saying that five

7 percent of the people had an -- that apply become members?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And we have Annette saying that there were seminars

10 held in Vietnam, Hong Kong and Hilton Head, and you should

11 read the magazine for the information on those seminars?

12 A Future seminars she said.

13 Q I don't think future. She said read the magazines

14 for the information on the seminars.

1 5 In any event, the transcript is what it is, but

16 there was that conversation as well; is that right?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And for those otherwise, all the information she gave

19 you was pretty accurate on the money; am I right?

20 A No.

21 Q You don't think so.

22 In any event --

23 A Not at all, sir.
24 Q In any event, because of the five percent, and
25 because telling you about seminars that appear in the

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5150
Watstein-cross/Geduldig


1 magazine, you are sitting here now today and you are

2 convinced that Annette Haley should be tried and convicted

3 of the crimes that you committed; is that correct?

4 MR. WHITE: Objection.

5 THE COURT: Can I hear that again, Mr. Reporter,

6 please.

7 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the

8 requested material.)

9 THE COURT: Objection sustained.

10 MR. GEDULDIG: Judge, I have no other questions.

11 THE COURT: Mr. Neville, you may proceed.

12 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you, your Honor.

13

14 CROSS-EXAMINATION

15 BY MR. NEVILLE:

16 Q Hello. My name is Jim Neville, I represent Scott

17 Michaelson.

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q You know Scott?

20 A Not personally, no.

21 Q You spoke to him on the phone?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q I wanted to ask you a few questions about the
24 catalogue from your company that you ran?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5151
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q I am referring to Defendant's Exhibit AO.

2 Is it really true you sold Lear Jets?

3 A If you bring me a copy of the catalogue, I will be

4 happy to respond to your question, sir.

5 (Handed to the witness.)

6 A Thank you.

7 Would you repeat the question, please, thank you.

8 Q Is it really true that you sold Lear Jets?

9 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.

10 Q Is a Lear Jet one of the items in that catalogue?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Is a Lear Jet for sale, one of the items in that

13 catalogue?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Is a Lear Jet for sale for some seven million plus

16 dollars in that catalogue for sale?

17 A Yes.

18 Q How many of those did you sell?

19 A We sold none of them, sir.

20 Q Did you have a stock from the Lear Jets?

21 A I had a conversation with Lear Jet and gained their

22 permission to have it for sale in the catalogue, sir.

23 Q Did you have a conversation with Lear Jet lately?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q Who is Edward Diamond in your business?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5152
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A A name made up for the purpose of the catalogue, sir.

2 Q In the catalogue, I am looking, and I will show it to

3 you, if you can't remember, but did you make this

4 catalogue up? Did you have a hand in putting it together,

5 producing it, that kind of a thing?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And there is a letter from the president, and it is

8 signed, Ed?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And that's Edward Diamond, the president?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And there is a picture of a guy in the upper

13 right-hand corner, is that Ed?

14 A Ed Joseph, sir. If you show me a copy and bring it

15 up I will tell you.

16 (Handed to the witness.)

17 A Yes, sir. It is Ed Joseph and asked to be called Ed

18 Diamond in the catalogue.

19 Q Where is Ed Joseph now? Do you know?

20 A He passed away, sir.

21 Q Sorry to hear that.

22 S ome of my colleagues were naive, but I heard you

23 were selling trips to the moon. Is that true?
24 A In a whimsical sense.
25 Q In a whimsical sense?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5153
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 A Yes.

2 Q How much did it cost for that whimsical trip to the

3 moon?

4 A You have to give me the catalogue and I will see.

5 What page is it on?

6 Q I don't know. I was told it was in there. I just

7 want to check with you?

8 A I don't readily see it, but it was done in a

9 whimsical sense.

10 Q What do you mean?

11 A In the same fashion that Neiman Marcus just sold two

12 twin elephants on the cover of the catalogue. There was

13 no intention to sell it. It was just created for an

14 ambiance for the catalogue.

15 Q I guess Senator Glen doesn't need your catalogue. He

16 is going into space without you; is that correct?

17 A I assume that's correct, sir.

18 Q To get this straight, and you have to take it slowly

19 with me, because I have trouble keeping up with you.

20 You were arrested when?

21 A In May of 1992.

22 Q The first time you got arrested you closed down the

23 business on Cutter Mill Road but then went to North Shore
24 Towers and get going with the business?
25 A Inaccurate, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5154
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q I am sorry, that's after the search warrant was

2 executed?

3 A You have to rephrase the question, please.

4 Q When the Cutter Mill Road business was searched by

5 the government, you didn't get arrested then?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q You then began to run your business from North Shore

8 Towers after that, right?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q Did you ever run your business out of North Shore

11 Towers?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Was that after you were in Cutter Mill Road?

14 A They weren't contiguous, sir.

15 Q How come I can't get a straight answer out of you?

16 MR. WHITE: Objection.

17 THE COURT: Sustained.

18 Q You were arrested in May of 1992?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q And you started to cooperate with the government

21 when, about a month after that, or so?

22 A The initial discussions were in July of 1992. The

23 agreement was entered into in September of 1992.
24 Q All right.
25 The time frame when you were making the telephone

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5155
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 calls here when you spoke to a bunch of different people,

2 among them Scott Michaelson, was in 1994, right?

3 A By making the telephone calls here? I am sorry.

4 Q In this case. You were here on this case. I am

5 sorry, if I am not as exact as you.

6 This case, Scott Michaelson, my client, phone

7 calls, does that all -- come to you?

8 A I understand the phrases, sir.

9 Q So, the phone calls you made that had to do with this

10 case, were in 1994, right?

11 A And 1995, yes, sir.

12 Q All right.

13 When was it again that you heard from your lawyer

14 about the Marquis Who's Who lawsuit against Mr. Gordon's

15 business?

16 A I believe it was 1994.

17 Q When in 1994?

18 A I don't have a clear recollection, sir.

19 Q Come on, spring, fall, winter?

20 A I believe it was the spring if you like me to guess,

21 sir.

22 Q So, you heard in the Spring of 1994 about the Marquis

23 Who's Who lawsuit against Mr. Gordon, right?
24 A That's correct, sir, if my g uess is correct, yes.
25 Q And you then, after hearing from your lawyer about

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5156
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 the lawsuit, you then told Inspector Biegelman about it;

2 is that right?

3 A That is correct.

4 Q And Inspector Biegelman is not in the courtroom; is

5 that right?

6 A That is correct, sir.

7 Q You still keep in touch with him?

8 A I spoke to him briefly, sir. I ran into him, but I

9 didn't keep in touch with him.

10 Q Are you working on any cases presently?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q So, you told Inspector Biegelman about this lawsuit.

13 When was that?

14 A When did I tell him about it?

15 Q Yes?

16 A I previously told you I guessed it was in the Spring

17 of 1994.

18 Q I asked you when your lawyer told you about it?

19 A It would have been i mmediately thereafter.

20 Q How immediately?

21 A It would have been within a day, sir.

22 Q You picked up the phone and called Inspector

23 Biegelman?
24 A I believe I sent a memo. I don't have a definite
25 recollection.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q Did you do any testifying at the Marquis Who's Who

2 trademark infringement suit?

3 A I was at the Court. I don't have a clear

4 recollection as to whether or not I did.

5 Q Were you subpoenaed to testify?

6 A I don't have a recollection as to that. I was

7 certainly in court and saw the proceedings.

8 Q You don't remember if you testified, but you were at

9 the court?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q You are sure of that?

12 A I am sure of that.

13 Q Why would you have been there if you didn't testify?

14 A I think the matter might have been heard on the

15 motion of papers and not witnesses. I could have been

16 incorrect about that.

17 Q Why would you be there? What would you have to do

18 with that unless you were called as a witness?

19 A I maintained an interest in the outcome of the

20 matter, certainly. Wouldn't that be logical?

21 Q Sure would. An intense interest, no?

22 A Yes, it was important.

23 Q Now, your lawyer told you about the lawsuit or the
24 results of the lawsuit between Marquis and Mr. Gordon's
25 business?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A I believe there were several conversations about it.

2 It goes back many years ago. I am not quite sure.

3 Q Your lawyer tells you about it, and within a day you

4 call Marty Biegelman; is that right?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q I thought that's what you said?

7 A No, sir. Not what I said.

8 Q All right. Tell me what you said?

9 A I sent him a memo.

10 Q Within a day?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And you communicated with Marty Biegelman within a

13 day?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q You are absolutely right. I have to be more

16 precise.

17 Now, you don't remember if your lawyer told you

18 about the results of the case or just the fact that it was

19 pending; is that your testimony?

20 A My best recollection is there were two separate

21 matters, hearing about the lawsuit and the outcome was

22 separately attached. I am not quite sure then.

23 MR. NEVILLE: Do we have this memo?
24 Q When you sent this memo to Marty Biegelman, what did
25 you say? What was your interest in the case?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A I will have to see the memo to have my memory

2 refreshed.

3 Q We can come back to that.

4 A Certainly.

5 Q After you sent the memo to Marty Biegelman, did he

6 contact you or get back to you?

7 A I believe he contacted my attorney and not me. I am

8 not quite sure.

9 Q Marty Biegelman heard about the lawsuit from you,

10 didn't know anything about it? Do you know?

11 A That is my guess on it, that might be. I am not

12 quite sure.

13 Q I will hand you what is marked as 3500-22-G, and ask

14 you if you recognize it.

15 (Handed to the witness.)

16 Q I know it is not the memo we have been referring to,

17 but is it a memo you sent to Marty Biegelman.

18 How many memos did you send to Marty Biegelman?

19 A About three over the years.

20 Q How many times did you speak to him over the phone?

21 A Ten or 15 over the years.

22 Q Ten or 15 times over a few years?

23 A Over the phone, yes, sir.
24 Q Did you ever have any conversations with any of the
25 Marquis Who's Who attorneys, a Mr. Bailey, for example?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q How about Mr. Douglas?

3 A It wasn't a yes to Mr. Bailey. It was just a yes in

4 general.

5 Q All right.

6 Did you speak to Mr. Bailey?

7 A I don't have a recollection of that name, sir.

8 Q How about Mr. Skalka?

9 A The name doesn't ring a bell to me, sir.

10 Q But you did speak to some of their lawyers?

11 A In reference to litigation we had with Marquis, yes,

12 sir.

13 Q Did you ever have any discussions with those lawyers

14 after you found out about the trademark infringement

15 lawsuit brought by Marqu is against Mr. Gordon?

16 A No, sir.

17 Q When you were facing Judge Mishler for sentencing you

18 didn't want to go to jail?

19 A That's true.

20 Q You weren't sure you would go to jail or not; is that

21 correct?

22 A Yes, sir, that's correct.

23 Q Correct me if I am mistaken, but you sent a letter or
24 a fax to Judge Mishler, pleading for leniency, didn't you?
25 A I think that's an accurate characterization, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q A normal thing for someone in your position to do,

2 nothing wrong with that?

3 A I don't know if it is normal or not. It is an

4 accurate characterization of the memo.

5 Q I would have done that certainly, too.

6 You didn't want to go to jail for many reasons.

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q And one of the reasons it is not nice to have someone

9 lock you into a room at night?

10 A Correct.

11 Q Your personal freedom is cut back?

12 A Correct, sir.

13 Q I bet one of the most or more important things that

14 weighed on your mind is what you going to jail would do to

15 your family?

16 A An accurate statement, yes.

17 Q Your children?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Your sons?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And, in fact, you made it clear to Judge Mishler, one

22 of your sons specifically you were quite worried about?

23 A That's correct, sir.
24 Q Do you know anything about Scott Michaelson and his
25 kids?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A No, I have no knowledge of Scott Michaelson at all.

2 Q When you were speaking to Scott Michaelson over the

3 telephone did you have any idea what he was all a bout or

4 who he was?

5 MR. WHITE: Objection.

6 THE COURT: Well, you missed the last question.

7 That I would have sustained.

8 MR. WHITE: Mr. Neville was too quick for me,

9 sorry.

10 THE COURT: This one I will let go, overruled.

11 A Repeat it, please.

12 Q When you called in on this case, and spoke to Scott

13 Michaelson on the phone, did you have any idea of who he

14 was, or what he was about?

15 A Other than as he discussed with me, no, sir.

16 Q You spoke about your present employment. You do some

17 consulting for three different outfits?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Just Great Coffee?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q Larry Tucker?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And Core State Bank; is that correct?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Where is Just Great Coffee based?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A New Jersey, sir.

2 Q Who owns the company?

3 A Bruce Seitz, S E I T Z.

4 Q Is he an acquaintance of yours other than just in

5 business relations?

6 A He was initially, but has become an acquaintance of

7 mine, he wasn't initially.

8 Q He is not a family member?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q Anyone in your family work for that outfit?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q You told Mister -- what was his name, Seitz?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q You told him you are a convicted felon?

15 A That is correct, sir.

16 Q How about Larry Tucker, where is that located?

17 A Located in Saddle River, New Jersey, sir.

18 Q Who owns Larry Tucker?

19 A Larry Tucker.

20 Q You told Larry Tucker about the fact you are a

21 convicted felon?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q Nothing wrong with someone convicted of a felony
24 getting thei r life back together, but certainly the
25 employers should know the facts when they hire somebody,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 right?

2 A As to an employer, yes, sir.

3 Q I can understand why you may want to hide that from

4 someone, but from an employer's perspective, you may

5 understand they may want to know that kind of a thing,

6 right?

7 A From an employer's standpoint, yes, sir.

8 Q Especially an employer like a bank; is that right?

9 A No, sir, the bank is not my employer, sir.

10 Q Does the bank pay you any money?

11 A It pays my company a consulting fee, sir.

12 Q In other words, the advice you give to Core State

13 Bank is not coming out of goodness of your heart?

14 A No.

15 Q And they don't expect it to come out of the goodness

16 of your heart, they exp ect you -- to pay you for it?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Core State Bank is in Philadelphia?

19 A Yes.

20 Q A big outfit?

21 A Yes, just acquired by a major bank, First Union Bank.

22 Q I will come back to the bank, but before I do that, I

23 will ask if you remember any of the conversations you had
24 with any of the other sales people at Who's Who Worldwide
25 or Sterling.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5165
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1 Do you remember a person by the name of Ed

2 Shaffer, S H A F F E R?

3 A I believe so, yes, sir.

4 Q Do you see him here in the courtroom?

5 A No.

6 Q How about --

7 A I would not know him if he were here, sir.

8 Q How about Marilyn Pierce? Remember speaking with

9 her?

10 A That name is familiar, sir.

11 Q Do you see her?

12 A I wouldn't kn ow her if I saw her.

13 Q How about Robert lamb?

14 A It doesn't ring a bell, but it is possible.

15 Q How about Bob, does that ring a bell?

16 A Possibly, but it doesn't ring a bell.

17 Q Michael Powers?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Do you see him in the courtroom?

20 A I don't know Mr. Powers, sir.

21 Q How about Michael Esposito?

22 A That one doesn't ring a bell, sir.

23 Q Tom Randall?
24 A I believe so, sir.
25 Q Do you see him in the courtroom?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A I don't know Mr. Randall, sir.

2 Q How about Carl Roper?

3 A That one doesn't ring a bell, sir.

4 Q How about Jill Barnes?

5 A Yes, sir, that name rings a bell.

6 Q Is she in the courtroom?

7 A I don't know her, sir.

8 Q Joe Parks?

9 A I am not sure, sir.

10 Q David Vine?

11 A I am not sure, sir.

12 Q As in a snake in the vine.

13 A I understand the spelling. I am not familiar with

14 the name. I am sure it is possible.

15 Q How about Madeline Bailey?

16 A That sounds familiar.

17 Q Do you see her here?

18 A I don't know Ms. Bailey, sir.

19 Q Tina Walsh?

20 A That sounds familiar.

21 Q Is she in the room?

22 A I wouldn't know Ms. Walsh, sir.

23 Q How about Larry Dodge, as in dodging going to jail?
24 MR. WHITE: Objection.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A It doesn't ring a bell, sir.

2 THE COURT: You don't have to answer that. It is

3 stricken.

4 A Sorry.

5 Q Kevin McCarthy?

6 A It doesn't ring a bell, sir.

7 Q The names you used when you called up on these

8 assignments -- okay if I call them assignments from

9 Inspector Biegelman?

10 A Acceptable, sir.

11 Q Where did you get those names? Where did they come

12 from?

13 A I made them up, sir.

14 Q Where did the name Edward X. Grimaldi,

15 G R I M A D L I, come from?

16 A I used the name from my imagination, sir.

17 Q Chuck Sampson, we spoke about that yesterday.

18 A Yes, sir, the answer to all these names would be the

19 same.

20 Q Like Sampson and Dalila?

21 A I am not sure where it came from, sir.

22 Q Jacob Cawfield?

23 A The same thing.
24 Q Any relation to Holden?
25 MR. NEVILLE: C A W F I E L D, I believe. I have

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 read some books.

2 Q Howard Lauter, L A U T E R?

3 A I merely created that n ame as I previously testified.

4 Q Let's get back to Core State Bank.

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q When you say that the Core State Bank pays your

7 company a consulting fee, am I correct that that means

8 that some of the money that Core State Bank has ends up in

9 your pockets?

10 A No, sir, it would not be an accurate statement.

11 Q Okay.

12 Does it mean some money from Core State Bank ends

13 up in a bank account, what was it, the beneficial interest

14 in?

15 A I can't answer with a yes or no, sir.

16 Q How much money did Core State bank pay, or maybe I

17 should say remit to your company for consulting fees in

18 the last year?

19 A Approximately $30,000.

20 Q What kind of consulting do you do for Core State

21 Bank?

22 A Marketing consulting.

23 Q Didn't I hear you say something about assets?
24 A They are in the asset base le nding business, sir.
25 Q Asset base lending business, what is that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Providing a loan secured by accounts receivable and

2 inventory of a company.

3 Q Wow. I have no idea what you just said, but I

4 believe you.

5 That has to do with some of the money that the

6 bank has that gets lent out to people who are going to

7 borrow it; right?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Like, if I will buy a house, the bank lends me money

10 so I can buy the house, right?

11 A If you want to rephrase that question, I don't

12 understand what you are saying, sir.

13 Q Okay.

14 Can you give us an example of one of the

15 assignments you had with Core State Bank? What was one of

16 the assignments you worked on?

17 A To train their salespeople, sir.

18 Q Fo r telemarketing stuff?

19 A No, for calling officer programs, C A L L I N G,

20 calling officer programs.

21 Q What is that?

22 A An officer who makes visits to potential borrowers.

23 Q What do you teach those people at the bank?
24 MR. WHITE: Objection.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q Do you teach them anything about puffing the drop?

2 MR. WHITE: Objection.

3 THE COURT: Sustained.

4 Q That book you wrote about the Power and Pleasure of

5 Sex.

6 A Yes.

7 Q It sounds like a must read?

8 MR. WHITE: Objection.

9 THE COURT: Is that a question or a statement,

10 Mr. Neville?

11 MR. NEVILLE: I don't know what it was, your

12 Honor. I will withdraw it.

13 THE COURT: The jury has been instructed a number

14 of times that these statements are not evidence in the

15 case. You are totally to disregard them, whether humorous

16 or not. The fact that they may be humorous doesn't give

17 it any evidentiary standing whatsoever.

18 Q You do some consulting for Core State Bank?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And Core State has money?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Stock portfolios?

23 A I don't know if they do.
24 Q Mortgages, probably?
25 A I assume so. I am not involved in that aspect of

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 their business.

2 Q Now, marketing -- you are instructing people at the

3 bank to make sales, learning how to make sales?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q Do you know if Core State Bank has any pension funds

6 that are handled?

7 A I have no idea.

8 Q Individual retirement accounts?

9 A I assum e so, I am not sure.

10 Q Credit unions?

11 A Perhaps.

12 Q Education loans?

13 A I have no idea.

14 Q Business loans?

15 A I assume so. An asset base loan is a business loan.

16 Q Say it again, sir?

17 A An asset base loan is a business loan.

18 Q Asset, like A S S E T?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Like having assets, like having money?

21 A No. Like inventory and accounts receivable.

22 Q So, would you agree with me, that you, helping to

23 train some of these people at Core State Bank to make
24 sales in their assets based division is a most important
25 affair at the bank?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A No, sir.

2 Q Is it an important affair at the bank?

3 A I am a minor consultant of that company, yes, sir.

4 Q And whether you are minor or major, the bank has an

5 assets based sales program because it considers it

6 important enough to spend time on it; is that right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And whether your minor or major is an -- is as a

9 consultant, the assets based division of the bank involves

10 important affairs of the bank; is that right?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Correct me if I am wrong, but the financial state of

13 the bank can be can be affected directly or indirectly in

14 how the assets of the bank are managed?

15 MR. WHITE: Objection.

16 THE COURT: Sustained.

17 Q You didn't tell anybody at Core State Bank you are a

18 convicted felon?

19 A Yes, sir, correct.

20 Q You did not tell anybody?

21 A Your statement is correct.

22 Q Can you say that, I did not tell them?

23 A I did not tell them, as previously testified, sir.
24 Q Now, who did you speak with at the bank to get the

25 consultant job?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Greg Pass.

2 MR. WHITE: Objection.

3 Q Mr. X, maybe Mr. Grimaldi?

4 MR. WHITE: Objection.

5 THE COURT: Sustained.

6 Q Do you think that Mr. X, knowing about your fraud

7 conviction, that that would have made him pause before

8 acting and hiring your company to do consulting work in

9 the assets based division of Core State Bank?

10 MR. WHITE: Objection.

11 THE COURT: Sustained.

12 MR. NEVILLE: Much to your dismay, your Honor, I

13 am not finished.

14 I will be now referring to

15 Government's Exhibit 1308-A.

16 Q Mr. Grimaldi -- I mean Watstein.

17 I am handing you what is marked as 1308-A.

18 The jurors all have it?

19 THE JURORS: Yes.

20 THE COURT: Please don't address the jurors,

21 Mr. Neville. At any time, don't do that.

22 MR. NEVILLE: I am sorry, your Honor. I

23 apologize.
24 Q Now, you see that exhibit?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q And that was a conversation between you, a/k/a, Ed

2 Grimaldi, right, and Scott Michaelson?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And that conversation took place on the 27th of

5 October of 1994?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And so, you stated earlier, you testified earlier,

8 that you heard about the Reed Elsevir, Marquis Who's Who

9 trademark infringement lawsuit against Mr. Gordon's

10 company in the Spring of 1994?

11 A That was my guess, yes, sir.

12 Q So, this telephone conversation takes place after you

13 found out about that lawsuit; is that right?

14 A To the best of my knowledge, yes, sir.

1 5 Q Without looking at the transcript, Mr. Watstein, do

16 you have an independent recollection of the phone call,

17 where you pose as Edward Grimaldi, the owner of a beauty

18 salon?

19 A I made 61 calls, I can't do it without looking at the

20 transcript.

21 Q I will let you look at it. I am asking if you

22 remember this one?

23 A In a general sense, yes.
24 Q You remember the name Scott Michaelson?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q Okay.

2 Now, look at the transcript, if you will, and

3 let's go through it.

4 A Certainly.

5 Q Now, you call yourself to Who's Who here; is that

6 right?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q When you called, you had not really received any card

9 in the mail from them; is that right?

10 A That is correct, sir.

11 Q And when you called, your name was Steve Watstein, it

12 wasn't Ed Grimaldi, right?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q And just about halfway down that first page you start

15 to speak with Scott Michaelson; is that right?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q And one of the first things you ask Scott Michaelson

18 toward the bottom of the first page is to see if your name

19 is in on the computer; is that right?

20 A What line are you in, sir?

21 Q Toward the bottom, the second to last attribution to

22 E.G.

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q You asked Scott if you were on the computer, right?
25 A Yes, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q You knew you wouldn't be on the computer, right?

2 A I would assume so.

3 Q Does that mean yes or does it mean no?

4 A It means I would assume so, sir.

5 Q Now, what you were doing there, weren't you, you were

6 trying to get Scott Michaelson to say, oh, yes, you are

7 right here on my computer, I have you right here? You

8 were trying to get Scott to say that?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q He didn't say that, did he?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q He didn't say that?

13 A Yes, sir, he didn't say that, sir.

14 Q You don't have to call me, sir.

15 A Okay.

16 Q At the bottom of the first page, Scott Michaelson

17 goes into quite an explanation as to why your name is not

18 on the computer; doesn't he?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Scott says, yeah, because once you send back your

21 form, and if they don't conduct the interview to qualify

22 you, they wouldn't have your -- have you, excuse me, on

23 the database. Somehow, maybe they didn't receive your
24 card, or for some reason, I have no idea.
25 Is that what Scot t Michaelson said to you?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And Scott Michaelson assumed, it appears, that you

3 had sent in some card, didn't he?

4 A I can't assume that he assumed anything.

5 Q Could you make an inductive leap and say that based

6 on Scott's words, he was believing you sent in a card?

7 MR. WHITE: Objection.

8 THE COURT: Sustained.

9 Q The top of the next page, the first attribution to

10 Scott there, he says, I don't know if we lost the card or

11 I have no idea.

12 He doesn't know what happened to the card, does

13 he?

14 A It appears to be the case.

15 Q And Scott was accurately stating to you that your

16 name was not in the computer?

17 A That is correct. That phrase is accurate.

18 Q Let's go down to the next part where Scot t speaks,

19 where you explain you have to send back the form, where he

20 says, no, because you still have to send back the form.

21 There are a lot of people for, whatever reason, don't feel

22 they want to be in here, or they're retired.

23 Do you see that?
24 A Yes.
25 Q That's what Scott Michaelson told you, isn't it?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q And Scott Michaelson then talks about 6,000 requests

3 each month, yes?

4 A Which line?

5 Q The next one down. Follow down. Believe me I will

6 do it in the simplest fashion.

7 A Okay.

8 Q 6,000 requests each month, and 1,000 are accepted; is

9 that right?

10 A That's what Scott says, yes.

11 Q Okay.

12 Now Scott then in his next statement after that

13 one says that just because your card is back doesn't mean

14 you are automatically in the database.

15 Do you see where Scott says that?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q And he is still explaining to you here, isn't he,

18 that you would have to send a card in, because even though

19 someone sends a card in, it doesn't mean they are

20 automatically in the database? Is that what he says?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And what he is saying if someone sends a card back,

23 they have to get on the telephone to see if they qualify
24 to get into the registry; is that correct?
25 A Uh-huh.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q Does that mean yes?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And then Scott explains to you in the next

4 attribution to Scott, you still -- so, we go over the

5 information. We get your profile and then we go over the

6 membersh ip with you.

7 And you say right after that, Ed Grimaldi, but we

8 know it is Steve Watstein, don't we?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q Okay, well, well, I got some questions. Why, why

11 don't you ask me whatever you like first, and then, then

12 I, I'll answer a few questions. Fire away.

13 Did Marty Biegelman tell you to say that?

14 A No.

15 Q Did you have a plan at this time when you called up

16 and spoke to Scott Michaelson?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Did you have a written list of statements that you

19 were going to make and questions you were going to ask

20 Scott?

21 A No.

22 Q Just off the top of your head?

23 A Yes.
24 Q Winging it?
25 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q You didn't have anything writt en down or prepared?

2 A That is correct.

3 Q Just doing it on the fly?

4 A Can I answer -- I can't answer with a yes or no,

5 sir.

6 Q Toward the bottom of the paper, after you say you

7 have some questions, and then you encourage Scott

8 Michaelson to fire away, Scott says, no, no, no. You

9 speak to me. You tell me what questions you have, in

10 words or substance, he says that, right?

11 A Uh-huh, yes.

12 Q Now, at the bottom, the last attribution to you at

13 the bottom of the page, you say, sure, sure. I'm a little

14 bit unconfident, unconfident, did you you say that word?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Unconfident, is that a word?

17 A A word I used in this mode, sir.

18 Q Because you were trying to come off as a dummy,

19 right?

20 A I can't respond yes or no to that question.

21 Q You know "unconfident" isn't an English word?

22 A Yes, correct, I know that.

23 Q You know it is not?
24 A Yes.
25 Q You were trying to come off as a dumb salon owner,

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 weren't you?

2 A No, sir.

3 Q You were in role, weren't you?

4 A That is correct, yes, sir.

5 Q So, you were unconfident, because, you know, umm, one

6 thing back and followed up, and nothing happened, but,

7 umm, in terms of, umm, of your group, Scott. Can you help

8 me understand, what, what do you do exactly? Are you a

9 membership group or --

10 Now, Scott tells it how it is, doesn't he? He

11 explains what that company is all about, doesn't he?

12 A You have to read the sentence to see if he tells it

13 like it is, sir.

14 Q He tells about the number of members?

15 A Yes, he makes that statement.

16 Q He talks about how it is a Worldwide Registry, but at

17 that time it was mostly domestic. He says that, sir?

18 A You are skipping over what it says, sir.

19 Q Though it is still mostly domestic, am I reading it

20 right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q He is not trying to make you think that only the Shah

23 of Iran, or anybody else from South America are in this
24 registry, he makes you think it is mostly a domestic
25 publication?

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1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q You were in role when made this call?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And Scott Michaelson was doing his job, wasn't he?

5 A It is an accurate statement.

6 Q At the bottom of the page, Scott talks about how each

7 member has a right to nominate up to two, three people in

8 the registry each year, do you know that?

9 A Have we skipped a prior phrase, sir?

10 Q I am asking you the questions, okay?

11 A I thought you were continuing. I am sorry.

12 Q It is all right.

13 A Thank you.

14 Q Let's go to the next page.

15 The first attribution to Scott on page 3, I

16 believe it is. He says, oh, I have -- at my level, I

17 wouldn't know specifically, because we also get people

18 from various trade magazines. If there is a nice article

19 about yourself we might go after you as well. But you

20 would have to be submitted or referred.

21 Do you see where Scott Michaelson says that?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Do you see where Scott says, oh, I have at my level,
24 I wouldn't know specifically?
25 A I see that portion.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q Am I reading it correctly?

2 A Certainly are.

3 Q If I am reading it correctly, it means that what

4 Scott said?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q And that's what Scott said to you?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q You say in the next line, in other words, I am not on

9 some kind of mailing list somewhere or something?

10 Scott, says, umm, not that I know of, no.

11 Because I -- we have to reject more people than we

12 actually accept.

13 That's what Scott said to you?

14 A That's right.

15 Q The mailing list question -- withdrawn.

16 Did you agree when you were testifying at this

17 trial that you understand now, or you are under the

18 impression now that Marquis Who's Who uses mailing lists?

19 A Yes.

20 Q I just wanted to make sure that I heard that.

21 Then as Mr. Geduldig pointed out to you, your

22 next attribution is you say I gotcha, I gotcha; is that

23 what you said?

2 4 A Only said once.
25 Q I see it twice, I got you, I got you.

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1 A Got, not gotcha.

2 Q I got you, I got you?

3 A That's right.

4 Q Is that in there twice?

5 A Yes, sir, as phrased that way, yes, sir.

6 Q Scott goes on to talk about how you could

7 cross-reference the members, you could cross-reference via

8 the registry, or Scott says in the middle of the page, we

9 have it on a CD-ROM format for an IBM.

10 You say, I see.

11 Do you see where it says that?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And Scott goes to the rest of the presentation, we

14 provide services for our members. We list you in the

15 registry for the duration of your membership.

16 That means, if you are a three year member, you

17 are in there for three years, right? Isn't that what a

18 reasonable person would deduce from that statement by

19 Scott Michaelson?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q If you are a lifetime member you would be in there

22 for the rest of your life?

23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And if it is in your case, you will live to be a
25 hundred?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A I will try, sir.

2 Q Scott says, we provide you with a beautiful custom

3 engraved wall plaque, we send you the artwork, we send you

4 artwork of our seal, if you want to place it on your

5 business cards, uh-huh.

6 Do you see that?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And so, he is telling -- he is giving the

9 presentation, right?

10 A Yes.

11 THE COURT: Is this a good time to take a break,

12 Mr. Neville?

13 MR. NEVILLE: Sure.

14 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will take a

15 15 minute recess. Please do not discuss the case. Keep

16 an open mind. Please recess yourselves.

17 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the

18 courtroom.)

19 THE COURT: You can step down, Mr. Watstein.

20 Where are the students? Come on up.

21

22 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)

23
24
25

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 THE CLERK: Jury entering.

2 THE COURT: Please be seated.

3 You may proceed, Mr. Neville.

4 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you.

5 Q Before we broke for the break, we were I believe, on

6 page four of the transcript, Mr. Watstein.

7 I was pointing out the attribution to Scott, a

8 little more than half way down the paper, where he is

9 explaining the different benefits; do you see that?

10 A Yes, sir.

1 1 Q And then Scott says in the next attribution to him,

12 then you can nominate two people a year into the

13 registry. It's all public relations, marketing,

14 cross-referencing the net members. It's independent

15 recognition.

16 Do you see that?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And then Scott says, after you say, I see, I see,

19 Scott says, and, we do have the best target audience,

20 probably in the entire world. We have Fortune Ten

21 executives in here, and we also have small business

22 consultants.

23 Do you see that?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And then Scott says, it's all according to their

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 distribution, the services, and of course, you know, their

2 years of experience in their industry.

3 And then you say, I see, so you would say it's

4 somewhat p restigious?

5 Scott says, I had -- I would say it's very

6 prestigious, our quarterly magazine and newsletter that we

7 put out, it's called Tribute. Keeps you up-to-date, a lot

8 of our new benefits, but we also profile a lot of our top

9 executives, and that you might be familiar with.

10 Do you see that?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Salesmanship?

13 A I can't answer yes or no.

14 Q There is an interruption in the tape where someone

15 cuts into the conversation and says Larry Gatlin is

16 holding for you.

17 A Yes.

18 Q Do you see that?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Where were you when you made the phone call?

21 A 1000 West McNab Road, Pompano Beach, Florida.

22 Q In an office?

23 A Yes.
24 Q In your office?
25 A In a conference room.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q And then Scott goes on to say, so, we usually do up

2 to about ten people that we profile in our magazine. So,

3 yes, you are in some very good company. People that you

4 would read about and see in the newspapers. But, there is

5 also people that you wouldn't know. But it's a mixed

6 bag. But they are all members.

7 You see that?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Pretty straight statement?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Is it a question? Is it a pretty straight statement?

12 A I can't answer that with a yes or no. Sorry, sir.

13 Q Now, the conversation begins to get interesting at

14 this point, because you begin to talk about the beauty

15 salon. You see that?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And do you see where you drop that in there where you

18 say a little bit more down the page, or a third down the

19 page, where someone says, someone is calling me here in

20 the beauty parlor, could you hold just one second? Do you

21 see that?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And you weren't in the beauty parlor?
24 A No.
25 Q The reason you are saying that is because you were

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 going to talk about how you are the owner of Ed's Beauty

2 Salon, and using words like unconfident, and things like

3 that, to try to trick Scott Michaelson into selling you a

4 membership that you really didn't deserve, right?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q Now, further down the page, about two-thirds of the

7 way down, in answering your question, where you say one

8 out of six people are accepted, and Scott says, no, we

9 have 6,000 requests each month for inclusion, and we only

10 accept about 1,000 new members, and you affirm that that

11 is one out of six, and Scott says, yes; do you see that?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Now you start talking money, cost, toward the bottom

14 of the page?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Okay, Scott, what is all this going to cost?

17 And Scott says, okay, there are two memberships,

18 we have a lifetime membership and five year membership,

19 the five year membership, there is a one time charge of

20 $350. It includes your privileges, your services and your

21 custom wall plaque.

22 Then Scott says, doesn't he, your only options

23 are the registry, which is released every January, and our
24 CD-ROM disks, which is available now; do you see where
25 Scott says that?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Yes.

2 Q That's an option that you have; is that right?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q Yes, that means you pay extra for options?

5 A Yes.

6 Q When you buy a car and try to get an FM radio,

7 instead of AM, that's an option, right?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And you pay more money for it, don't you?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Then Scott talks at the bottom of the page, the

12 lifetime membership?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Talks about the one time charge of $750, right?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Talks about the CD-ROM and the wall plaques, yes?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Then you ask at the top of that next paper, and I

19 believe it is page 6, and how much was the -- I lost the

20 price on the first one, I am sorry.

21 Scott, the five year -- Scott says, the five year

22 is $350.

23 Then Scott says, and the lifetime is 750.
24 Do you see that?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q Now, Scott after that says to you, does he not, ab out

2 between a quarter and a third of the way down the page,

3 the third attribution to Scott on this page, and after

4 your first year, your annual dues are only $49 per year.

5 That will maintain your benefits, it will include our

6 quarterly magazine, the Tribute, which I mentioned

7 before. If you have use for the CD-ROM, you feel that you

8 can benefit -- I assume he meant from it -- and you have

9 the hardware, then we suggest the lifetime duration. If

10 you really don't, then I would start with the five year

11 membership.

12 He is trying to sell you the most expensive

13 thing, isn't he? Isn't he?

14 A He is attempting to sell me something, yes, sir.

15 Q He is not trying to sell you the most expensive

16 thing, is he, Mr. Grimaldi -- Mr. Watstein?

17 A Would you repeat the question.

18 Q Scott Michaelson is giving you the option to buy

19 something cheaper, isn't he?

20 A That is correct.

21 Q Okay.

22 And then Scott says, doesn't he, almost halfway

23 down the page, cause it's less expensive, and you can
24 always upgrade.
25 Do you see that?

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1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q After that Scott says, if you want, in two years to

3 go to a lifetime membership, we would credit what you

4 paid. We would charge the difference.

5 It seems pretty fair, doesn't it?

6 A I can't comment with a yes or no, sir.

7 Q Does it seem unfair to you?

8 A I can't comment with a yes or no.

9 Q Now, we get to the meat of the conversation where you

10 are starting to ask Scott about whether or not you

11 qualify, right? Do you see that?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q And this is especially important because n ot every

14 Joe should be able to get into this registry, right?

15 A I think it is an accurate statement.

16 Q Like somebody from Ed's Beauty Salon, right?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Somebody uses the word "unconfident", right?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Okay.

21 You say, I see, Scott, now, umm, let me see

22 whether I'm going to qualify or not. Why don't, ask me a

23 couple of questions.
24 Scott says, okay.
25 And then Scott asks your name, and you say

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Edward, middle initial X, and the name of your company.

2 Do you see that toward the bottom of the page?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And then you say, Ed's Salon?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Do you see that?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And the test, Larry Gatlin comes to the conversation

9 again?

1 0 A Yes.

11 Q Do you see that?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Ed's, title?

14 My title is owner.

15 Telephone numbers.

16 Then a third way down the page, Scott says, okay,

17 what does the company do, Mr. Grimaldi? Do you see that?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And do you see where Scott asks you that?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And you say, we are a beauty parlor; do you see that?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And then, let's look closely at what Scott says
24 next.
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q Scott says, okay, beauty parlor, they really -- I

2 don't think they would put that into the registry.

3 The only thing they would offer, they would give

4 you like a two year duration there, because a beauty

5 parlor can't really benefit from the networking in the

6 registry.

7 And then what do you say after that after that,

8 Ed -- Steve?

9 Sure we could. That's one of those gotchas,

10 because you are not really Ed from the beauty salon, you

11 are Steven Watstein trying to get Scott Michaelson to go

12 to jail, right?

13 MR. WHITE: Objection.

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 Q And you say, Mr. Watstein, the middle of the page,

16 sure we could. Did you say that?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And you are trying to give the impression that you

19 are the owner of a modest, humble, beauty salon that

20 shouldn't be in a registry like this, right?

21 A No, sir.

22 Q A guy who uses words like "unconfident," right?

23 A No, sir.
24 Q You don't have to call me, sir.
25 A I will try not to.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q You say, don't you.

2 Do you ever hear of a female executive?

3 Scott laughs. I am sorry?

4 You say, did you ever hear of a female

5 executive?

6 Then Scott says in his role as salesperson, oh,

7 no, and we have plenty of female executives, but what we

8 need is the people that are registering more or less, have

9 worldwide networking, or have a U.S. networking. You're

10 really a salon which is, I mean, I applaud you, I mean,

11 you're job is wonderful. But it's something that is

12 really not going to benefit from the entire registry as

13 far as members contacting you for products and things like

14 that in different areas.

15 Is that what Scott said to you?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q Then look at what Scott says after that. Why don't

18 you read what Scott says after that, Mr. Watstein.

19 A May I read the entire portion and not be stopped?

20 Q No.

21 A I see.

22 Q Read what I ask you to read, please?

23 A Certainly, I can understand.
24 Q What does Scott say?
25 A We, we wouldn't take your money for it.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q We wouldn't take your money for it.

2 Blew your doors right off, didn't he?

3 A No. Read the balance of it.

4 Q Okay, so does that mean they would reject us or --

5 no, they wouldn't reject it.

6 Does that -- did Scott Michaelson say ain't small

7 businesses? Did he say that?

8 A He may have. I don't recall.

9 Q You are still at it, not you?

10 A No, sir.

11 Q Scott says at the bottom of the page, I will read

12 it.

13 A Good.

14 Q They wouldn't reject it. What you have is an

15 option. They have like a two year duration, in which they

16 would list your industry . They would list your -- some of

17 your social information and your company, they would list

18 there. But it would only be for two years. They would

19 put in you a different section of the registry.

20 You teach people at Core State Bank to do

21 salesmanship on the phone, right?

22 A Right.

23 Q Salespeople try to make sales, right?
24 A Not at all times, sir.
25 Q Anything illegal about that, sir?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A No, sir, not that I am aware of.

2 Q Would you agree with me that Scott did damn well with

3 you on the phone trying to nail him? He did pretty well,

4 didn't he?

5 MR. WHITE: Objection.

6 THE COURT: Sustained.

7 Q You expect a salesperson to turn down a sale?

8 A Yes, sir, if it is inappropriate.

9 Q You are going to tell me what is inappropriate?

10 MR. WHITE: Objection.

11 THE COURT: Sustained.

12 Please don't argue with the witness,

13 Mr. Neville.

14 MR. NEVILLE: Excuse me.

15 Q All kidding aside, sir, what Scott Michaelson did was

16 reject what you were trying to do?

17 A No, sir. He reduced the unit of sale. That's what

18 he did.

19 Q Scott then -- this is on the next page, second

20 attribution down, I believe it is page 8 -- first

21 attribution to Scott.

22 Scott says, you would still be a member --

23 A I don't follow you.
24 Q I am on what I believe is page 8. At the top, the
25 first attribution to Scott.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Okay.

2 Q Scott Michaelson, remember him?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q Scott says, you'll still be a member, but you'll be

5 what they call an affiliate member, you are an associate

6 member.

7 Do you see that?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And then Scott says, after you say uh-huh, Scott's,

10 you would be in a different section of the registry. You

11 would have the same wall plaque. You would have the same

12 option -- sow see that word, "option"?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q What does it mean, pay more money for it?

15 A He would sell me more things; is that right.

16 Q And you would have the same option of receiving the

17 registry, it will just be in a different area.

18 Mr. Watstein, what did you expect Scott

19 Michaelson to do as a salesperson, say, you know, Ed, you

20 are a loser? You shouldn't be in our registry, and hang

21 up on you? Is that what he should have done, and then he

22 wouldn't go to jail if he did that?

23 A I can't respond yes or no, sir, unless you like an

24 open-ended answer.
25 Q The middle of that page Scott goes on to talk about

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 the plaque, what it would say. Do you see that?

2 A Uh-huh, yes.

3 Q And you say in the middle of that page, umm,

4 unintelligible, that's not bad, and that would be 350 for

5 that?

6 No, Scott says, right after that, no, that was

7 for your five year. The two year duration for the

8 affiliate would be $97 now, and then the option to receive

9 the registry -- and then the option to receive the

10 registry in December.

11 There is that darn word "option" again. Do you

12 see that?

13 A Yes.

14 Q You were trying to get Scott to say, yes, that's 350

15 bucks, weren't you?

16 A Absolutely not.

17 Q Absolutely not.

18 The bottom of that paper, Scott talks about some

19 of the members in the registry, right, in the

20 organization, after you ask him who is in the registry?

21 Do you see that, sir?

22 A Yes. You don't have to call me, sir.

23 Q Okay, I won't.
24 That was one of your little questions you asked
25 people, about who is in the registry, right?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A I don't understand your question, sir.

2 Q Do you remember when Mr. Geduldig was asking you

3 questions, and he was going down a list of things that you

4 targeted, that you mentioned in these calls where you were

5 trying to entrap these people?

6 MR. WHITE: Objection.

7 I am sorry, I was drinking a glass of water.

8 THE COURT: Sustained.

9 Q Remember the list of topics that you were covering in

10 these calls?

11 A Y es.

12 Q That Mr. Geduldig was talking to you about?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Do you remember Mr. Geduldig?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Now, one of those items that you were -- one of the

17 items that you were going over in your different calls was

18 the kind of people in the registry, the kind of people who

19 had a membership; is that right?

20 A I don't believe it was exactly phrased as

21 Mr. Geduldig's list.

22 Q I could never phrase it as eloquently as he did. But

23 do you catch my drift? Do you follow me?
24 A I think so, in a sense, yes.
25 Q So, what you were trying to do when you were making

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 this call, is you were going down the list of topics that

2 you cover on these calls to see what the people would say,

3 right?

4 A As phrased that way it is an accurate statement, yes.

5 Q Does that mean yes?

6 A It means yes, as phrased that way.

7 Q Now, Scott says at the bottom of the page, it would

8 be kind of tacky to member people, but he mentioned

9 someone from Sumner Redstone, do you know who that is?

10 A I know the name.

11 Q Who is that?

12 A A chairman of a major company.

13 Q Scott mentions Sumner Redstone, and he mentions it

14 because it is in Tribute, right, because it is public

15 knowledge?

16 A That's what he says.

17 Q Well, do you remember the case we are here on?

18 A I am very familiar with the case we are here on.

19 Q Do you have any idea why this conversation is part of

20 the case?

21 A Rephrase the question, sir.

22 Q No.

23 Do you have any idea why this conversation is
24 part of the case?
25 A This conversation with Scott and myself.



HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q Or Ed, whoever it was.

2 A Or your conversation with me.

3 Q The phone conversation, the tape.

4 A Yes, I have an understanding in my judgment, yes.

5 Q And you were a confidential informant, right?

6 A That's corrrect.

7 Q And you were working for Marty Biegelman; is that

8 correct?

9 A That is correct.

10 Q And he had you on a leash, right?

11 A Incorrect.

12 MR. WHITE: Objection.

13 Q So to speak?

14 A No.

15 THE COURT: Sustained, sustained.

16 Q You were under his tutelage? How is that for a

17 word?

18 MR. WHITE: Objection.

19 THE COURT: Sustained.

20 Q And the words that are uttered in these conversations

21 are very important, aren't they?

22 A An accurate statement, sir.

23 Q Does th at mean yes?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And in fact, the way these questions are answered

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 could directly affect the outcome of this trial vis a vis

2 Scott Michaelson or anybody else in the room, right?

3 MR. WHITE: Objection.

4 THE COURT: Sustained.

5 Q Well, Mr. Watstein, you were asking these questions

6 for a reason, right?

7 A I can't answer with a yes or no.

8 Q Okay.

9 Now, let's look down a little further on the same

10 page, where Scott in his aggressive -- it is a quarter to

11 4:00. If you need to know the time, ask me?

12 A It is okay. Thank you.

13 Q Another instance where Scott was aggressively trying

14 to sell you more than you really wanted, and let's look at

15 it altogether.

16 Scott says in the middle of the page, with all

17 the other benefits, and then Scott says in his most

18 devious moment, I think as a salon, you really wouldn't

19 have use for it, because you really don't -- because you

20 don't really do any type of corporate networking. How

21 about that?

22 MR. WHITE: Objection.

23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 Q Did you see that?
25 A Yes.

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1 Q Mr. Watstein, did you see that?

2 A I answered, yes, sir.

3 Q And you heard Scott say that because you were the one

4 on the phone with him, right?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And so, you didn't get a gotcha on that one, did

7 you?

8 MR. WHITE: Objection.

9 THE COURT: Sustained.

10 Q And then Scott says -- withdrawn.

11 Then you say, so, from the benefit stand by, are

12 there any benefits that you can take of, with membership.

13 Scott says, well, that's basically it. I mean

14 the right to use our name on biographies and things like

15 that, and the wall plaque, and so, just to be affiliated

16 would be enough.

17 Does he say on there that the CD-ROM is thrown in

18 for good measure?

19 A I don't see that, no.

20 Q Does he say on there that you will get a Lear Jet?

21 A No.

22 Q A trip to the moon?

23 A No.
24 Q He tells you you could put the fact that you were in
25 Who's Who on a business card?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Amongst other things, yes.

2 Q And let's go to the next page.

3 The top of the page, the second attribution to

4 Scott, he talks about how you would get camera ready

5 artwork for your seal, of our seal.

6 Do you see that?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And you ask him about sending the check or a bill,

9 because the fact that Scott Michaelson and the other

10 salespeople were instructed to make only credit card sales

11 makes them guilty, right?

12 MR. WHITE: Objection.

13 THE COURT: Sustained.

14 Q So you go and do that song and dance with the check

15 and credit cards, whatever that was for and --

16 MR. WHITE: Objection.

17 THE COURT: Sustained.

18 Q You don't have the credit card on you, you say. That

19 was a lie, right? That was a figment of your imagination,

20 right?

21 A It is part of the investigation by the U.S. post

22 office, sir.

23 Q Did Marty Biegelman give you one of those Sherlock
24 Holmes hats and one of those magnifying glasses for your
25 investigation?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5206
Watst ein-cross/Neville


1 MR. WHITE: Objection.

2 THE COURT: Mr. Neville, do you have any

3 questions to ask to adduce relevant evidence?

4 MR. NEVILLE: Yes.

5 THE COURT: Proceed.

6 Objection sustained.

7 Q You didn't have any -- the rest of that conversation

8 was just about how you were going to call Scott back with

9 your credit card number and Scott gave you those

10 incriminatory statements, right?

11 MR. WHITE: Objection.

12 THE COURT: Sustained.

13 Q Now, let's look at the last question you asked,

14 Mr. Watstein, sir, to Scott, the bottom of that second to

15 last page.

16 Another one of your buzz words topics, how long

17 your company has been in business? Number three, one of

18 those topics, buzz words, yes?

19 A Is that on the list you are referring to, sir?

20 Q Number three, actually?

21 A It is on your list, y es.

22 Q And you say at the bottom there, don't you, umm, I,

23 I, you guys, you guys, umm, been in business for a long
24 time? Do you see that?
25 A Yes.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5207
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q Why did you ask that question, sir?

2 A I wanted to determine if I would be receiving an

3 accurate answer or non-accurate answer. Part of my

4 evaluation --

5 Q Thank you.

6 A I am not finished.

7 Q I don't care if you are not finished. You answered

8 the question.

9 MR. WHITE: Objection.

10 THE COURT: Stop and answer the question.

11 A Mr. Rapaport, read back the question, please.

12 THE COURT: Don't talk to Mr. Rapaport, no one

13 talks to him except me.

14 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, would you read back the

15 answer, please.

16 THE COURT: Read it back, plea se, Mr. Rapaport.

17 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the

18 requested material.)

19 THE COURT: The question is why did you ask that

20 question. What is your answer?

21 THE WITNESS: I wanted to determine if I was

22 receiving an accurate answer or not. If the answer was

23 accurate I would have that information. If not I
24 wouldn't. Those were the instructions given to me by
25 Inspector Biegelman, just to get accurate information.

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5208
Watstein-cross/Neville


1 Q What did Scott say to you? Could you read it,

2 please?

3 A Where are you now, sir? The last page?

4 Q Yes; the answer Scott gave you after you asked him

5 how long the company had been in business? What did Scott

6 say?

7 A We've been in business for five years.

8 Q Off with his head, right?

9 M R. WHITE: Objection.

10 THE COURT: Sustained.

11 MR. NEVILLE: I have no further questions.

12 THE COURT: Anybody else?

13 MR. DUNN: Yes, your Honor.

14 THE COURT: You may proceed.

15 MR. DUNN: Thank you.

16

17 CROSS-EXAMINATION

18 BY MR. DUNN:

19 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Watstein.

20 A Good afternoon.

21 Q I am like the last defense lawyer over there.

22 A Thank god.

23 Q Sometimes it makes it hard because you may run out of
24 questions to ask.
25 Isn't it true that there have been times where

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5209
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 you have given pep talks in a sense to real estate

2 salesmen? Is that correct?

3 A I believe that real estate salesmen attended my

4 seminars, but I don't believe I have done it with a

5 company itself, I may be mistake n.

6 Q But you have had seminars since your arrest, where

7 you have given seminars on how to sell; is that correct?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And you are still doing that today?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q And you were doing that while you were cooperating

12 with the U.S. Government; is that correct?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q Now, I represent a fellow who you may have spoken to

15 by the name of Steve Walden; does that ring a bell, that

16 name, to you?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And do you recall that when you spoke to him, that

19 one of the job titles that you referred to was that you

20 were the director of consulting; is that correct? Does

21 that ring a bell?

22 A I would have to see a copy of the transcript to

23 refresh my memory, sir.
24 Q Okay.
25 Before I give you anything to refresh your

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COUR T REPORTER
5210
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 recollection, do you also recall at some time in a

2 conversation describing yourself as a national key account

3 manager?

4 A I think so, but I am not positive, sir.

5 MR. DUNN: If I may approach, your Honor?

6 THE COURT: Yes.

7 (Counsel approaches the witness stand.)

8 Q The first one I want to show you is marked as

9 Government's Exhibit 1333-A, and I direct your attention

10 to page 2 of that transcript, where --

11 A Thank you.

12 Q Looking at that does it refresh your recollection

13 that at one time you used the job description as director

14 of consulting?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Is it fair to say that that is in a conversation

17 which has the exhibit with the name of Steve Walden on it?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And I would also like you to take a look at what has

20 been marked a s what is in evidence as

21 Government's Exhibit 1330-A, and direct your attention

22 page 6 at the top, the first two lines. Does that refresh

23 your recollection about being a national account manager?
24 A The term is national key account.
25 Q Key account?

HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5211
Watstein-cross/Dunn


1 A Yes.

2 Q And is it fair to say in that transcript the name

3 Steve Walden appears?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And it is fair to say that's in a conversation you

6 had with Steve Walden; is that correct?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q Now, you also recall having a conversation with one

9 of the people who told you his name was Steve Walden, that

10 you stated at one time that I see where you got the

11 positive thinking from?

12 A I recall that phrase, yes.

13 Q And in fact, you stated after Mr. Walden stated it to

14 you, I was crippled for three years, I was hit by a

15 drunken driver, and they told me I would never walk again,

16 and now I play racketball; do you remember that being

17 dis