5280 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, : CR 96 1016(S-1) 4 v. : U.S. Courthouse 5 Uniondale, New York BRUCE W. GORDON, WHO'S WHO 6 WORLD WIDE REGISTRY, INC., : STERLING WHO'S WHO, INC., 7 TARA GARBOSKI, ORAL FRANK : OSMAN, LAURA WEITZ, ANNETTE 8 HALEY, SCOTT MICHAELSON, : and MARTIN 9 REFFSIN, : TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL 10 Defendants. :February 23, 1998 11 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 9:28 o'clock a.m.
12 BEFORE:
13 HONORABLE ARTHUR D. SPATT, U.S.D.J. and a jury 14 APPEARANCES: 15 For the Government: ZACHARY W. CARTER 16 United States Attorney One Pierrepont Plaza 17 Brooklyn, New York 11201 By: RONALD G. WHITE, ESQ. 18 CECIL SCOTT, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorneys 19 For the Defendants: NORM
AN TRABULUS, ESQ. 20 For Bruce W. Gordon 170 Old Country Road, Suite 600 21 Mineola, New York 11501
22 EDWARD P. JENKS, ESQ. For Who's Who Worldwide 23 Registry, Inc. and Sterling Who's, Who, Inc. 24 332 Willis Avenue Mineola, New York 11501 25 (cont'd)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5281
1 APPEARANCES (cont'd):
2 GARY SCHOER, ESQ. For Tara Garboski 3 6800 Jericho Turnpike Syosset, New York 11791 4 ALAN M. NELSON, ESQ. 5 For Oral Frank Osman 3000 Marcus Avenue 6 Lake Success, New York 11042
7 WINSTON LEE, ESQ. For Laura Weitz 8 319 Broadway New York, New York 10007 9 MARTIN GEDULDIG, ESQ. 10 For Annette Haley 400 South Oyster Bay Road 11 Hicksville, New York 11801
12 JAMES C. NEVILLE, ESQ. For Scott Michaelson 13 225 Broadway New York, New York 10007 14 THOMAS F.X. DUNN, ESQ. 15 For Mr Shortcuts, 150 Nassau Street 16 New York, New York 10038
17 JOHN S. WALLENSTEIN, ESQ. For Martin Reffsin 18 215 Hilton Avenue Hempstead, New York 11551 19
20 Court Reporter: HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR United States District Court 21 Two Uniondale Avenue Uniondale, New York 11553 22 (516) 485-6558
23 Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript 24 produced by Computer-Assisted Transcription 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5282
1 M O R N I N G S E S S I O N
2
3 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.
4 Have a seat.
5 We are almost starting a minute before 9:30, not
6 quite. We didn't quite make it. Not due to any fault on
7 your part. I am the one at fault, as always. Other
8 matters.
9 Are we interrupting the previous witness?
10 MS. SCOTT: Yes, your Honor. We have
another
11 witness ready.
12 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we are going to
13 interrupt the testimony of Steven Watstein and take
14 another witness.
15 Incidentally, alternate juror number one,
16 apparently you have a doctor's appointment on Wednesday,
17 and you wish to leave 15 minutes early on Wednesday.
18 A reasonable request, which is granted.
19 Where is the witness?
20 MS. SCOTT: We are waiting for him, your Honor.
21 He disappeared for a couple of minutes.
22 THE COURT: We also have a new deputy courtroom
23 clerk this morning. I want to introduce Ilene. Not that 24 I fired my former. She is away for a week. Not 25 withstanding my efforts, and I practically granted a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5283
1 preliminary injunction preventing her from going. But she
2 left anyway.
3 JUROR NO. 4: She went to rainy Florida.
4 MS. SCOTT: The government calls Charles Smith.
5 THE CLERK: Please stand for the oath.
6
7 C H A R L E S S M I T H ,
8 called as a witness, having been first
9 duly sworn, was examined and testified
10 as follows:
11
12 THE CLERK: Please be seated.
13 Can you state and spell your full name for the
14 record.
15 THE WITNESS: Charles Smith, S M I T H.
16 THE COURT: You may proceed.
17
18 DIRECT EXAMINATION
19 BY MS. SCOTT:
20 Q Good morning, Mr. Smith.
21 A Good morning.
22 Q Can you tell us where you live?
23 A Jacksonville, Illinois. 24 Q And what do you do for a living? 25 A Self-employed.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5284 Smith-direct/Scott
1 Q How are you employed?
2 A Nursing home business
, methane gas, for development
3 of methane gas energy project, and organic fertilizer. We
4 are working on some special metal recovery projects.
5 Q These are businesses you are starting up?
6 A Businesses I have been involved in like 12 or fifteen
7 years developing.
8 THE COURT: I didn't get where you are from,
9 Mr. Smith? Sorry.
10 THE WITNESS: Jacksonville, Illinois.
11 THE COURT: Jacksonville, Illinois, as opposed to
12 Jacksonville, Florida.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, and Jacksonville, Texas and
14 Jacksonville, Illinois, yes. Our mail goes to all those
15 places.
16 THE COURT: I didn't know there were so many
17 Jacksonvilles.
18 THE WITNESS: A tremendous amount.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 Q Now, Mr. Smith, have you ever had any contacts with a
21 company called Who's Who Worldwide?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q And did you eventual
ly make a purchase from that 24 company? 25 A Yes, ma'am.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5285 Smith-direct/Scott
1 Q What did you purchase from them?
2 A A membership, five year membership, and a CD-ROM.
3 Q Now, when were you first contacted approximately by
4 this company?
5 A '93, 1992, or '93.
6 Q And do you remember how you were first contacted?
7 A I was contacted by -- I received a card in the mail.
8 Q Now, what did this contact in the mail tell you to
9 the best of your recollection?
10 A That they had membership in an organization called
11 Who's Who Worldwide, and that I had been -- they were
12 contacting me about becoming a member, or being a member
13 or membership, joining the organization. I don't remember
14 exactly what the card said, but something along that line.
15 Q Now, did you
return anything to the company?
16 A Yes, ma'am, I returned the card.
17 Q I am showing you Government's Exhibit 17-D, as in
18 Daniel.
19 (Handed to the witness.)
20 Q Do you recognize that, sir.
21 THE COURT: Is that in evidence?
22 MS. SCOTT: No, I am sorry. It is for
23 identification. 24 A Yes, ma'am. 25 Q What is that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5286 Smith-direct/Scott
1 A The card I received and filled out and sent back in.
2 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 17-D, as
3 in Daniel.
4 THE COURT: Any objection?
5 MR. TRABULUS: No objection.
6 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 17-D, for Dog,
7 in evidence.
8 (Government's Exhibit 17-D received in evidence.)
9 Q Mr. Smith, is the postmark visible on that item?
10 A No, ma'am.
11 Q Now, if you take a look
at the front of it.
12 MR. NEVILLE: I am sorry, I can't hear
13 Ms. Scott.
14 MS. SCOTT: I will speak up.
15 THE COURT: Keep your voice up, Ms. Scott.
16 Q If you take a look at the front of the post cards in
17 the lower right-hand corner --
18 A Yes.
19 Q By the front, I mean the part that you have written
20 on?
21 A The backside, okay.
22 Q Sorry about that.
23 A Okay. 24 Q In the lower right hand corner do you see printed 25 there a small code?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5287 Smith-direct/Scott
1 A Global L S1.
2 THE COURT: Global L S1?
3 THE WITNESS: It looks like L S1 or L SI. I
4 think it is L S1.
5 Q Now, what happened after you sent this card back?
6 A Someone called me. A gentleman called me.
7 Q Did you ever a conversation with this gentlemen?
8 A Yes, a lengthy one.
9 Q Did he say he was from Who's Who Worldwide?
10 A Yes.
11 Q What did this gentleman say in your conversation with
12 him?
13 A That my name had been put in nomination for
14 membership, and a publication directory that listed 5,000
15 business people worldwide.
16 Q Did he tell you anything else about the company?
17 A That there was exclusive membership, only about
18 5,000. And they published a directory to be distributed
19 worldwide also.
20 Q Now, what, if anything, did he tell you how members
21 were selected?
22 A He said they had to be -- your name had to be put in
23 selection by a member or a former member, someone who 24 might have been a member two years ago, or no longer was a 25 member, or had passed away, or by attrition only. It
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 52
88 Smith-direct/Scott
1 could have been anyone -- and I asked him when was I put
2 in, my name submitted? And he said there was no way of
3 knowing. It could have been several years ago or it could
4 have been recently.
5 Q What if anything did he tell you would happen to a
6 nomination after it had been made?
7 A They would submit it to the committee, and the
8 committee would accept it or turn it down.
9 Q You mentioned it was by attrition. What did you mean
10 by that?
11 A It was like two year membership, five year
12 membership, if you get dropped out or the person deceased,
13 and dropped out, it was limited to 5,000 per publication.
14 So someone had to leave the list out of the directory
15 before someone else could be submitted for approval.
16 Q Approximately how many membered, memberships did they
17 say were available for --
18 A
That year he said maybe four or five. I remember
19 that because he said there were two deaths and they didn't
20 explain the others.
21 Q Did you ask any questions during the course of this
22 conversation?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Do you remember what you asked him? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5289 Smith-direct/Scott
1 Q What was that?
2 A About ten times, who submitted my name.
3 Q What was the answer to that question?
4 A He couldn't give my name. That is not disclosed. He
5 said we can't tell you who it was.
6 Q What, if anything, did he tell you about what you
7 would receive for the money if you purchased a membership?
8 A I would receive a directory listing 5,000 people by
9 category of profession, and by -- with a plaque, and
10 credit card discount, travel discounts. And I wasn't
11 interested in some of those things that he did tell me
12 were offered.
13 Q Of the things said to you, what was the most
14 important thing said to you about the offer?
15 A Worldwide and someone had submitted my name for
16 nomination.
17 Q When you say worldwide, what do you mean by that?
18 A The methane gas energy project was something very few
19 people had been involved in. And like all research and
20 development, you need contact with other people involved
21 in that kind of a business. And I know the United States
22 is not only place in the world where people are doing
23 research and development on alternative energy projects. 24 So if it was worldwide, possibly Germany or some other 25 company, Japan, a lot of those places are far advanced
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5290 Smith-direct/Scott
1 fro
m what we were doing. And there is a possibility I
2 would get contact with them. They told me the directory
3 would be distributed and for referral all over the world
4 internationally. And I was hoping for something like
5 that, to get contact with somebody of that type.
6 Q If in fact your name was obtained from a mailing list
7 and not by nomination or from a member, would you be
8 interested in becoming a member and would you be
9 interested in joining?
10 A No.
11 Q Why is that?
12 A I get things submitted two or three hundred items a
13 month that comes from a mailing lists, I am sure. I throw
14 them away because I just don't purchase off a mailing
15 list.
16 Now, if I know it came from a mailing list I
17 wouldn't. But he stated off the -- right off the
18 beginning it was a nomination.
19 Q You say you purchased a five year membership, do
you
20 know what you paid for it?
21 A $291, or something like that, 290.
22 Q And how did you pay?
23 A A cashier's money order from a bank, Elliott State 24 Bank in Jacksonville. 25 Q I am showing you Government's Exhibit 17-A, 17-E,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5291 Smith-direct/Scott
1 17-F, as in Frank, and 17-G, as in George, for
2 Identification.
3 (Handed to the witness.)
4 If you look first at 17-A, the pink sheet, can
5 you tell us what it is?
6 A The invoice I received from the company after they
7 said I was improved for inclusion in the directory.
8 Q If you look at the orange sheet next to it, and I
9 believe it is 17-E.
10 A I am color blind. Is that orange or yellow.
11 Q It could be either one.
12 17-E.
13 THE COURT: Before you get into that, 17-A, is
14
there a date on that, Mr. Smith?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, invoice date 4/27/93.
16 Q Is 17-E, a copy of 17-A?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 17-A and
19 17-E.
20 THE COURT: What was 17-E, for Easy, again?
21 MS. SCOTT: It is a triplicate copy, a carbon
22 copy of 17-A.
23 THE COURT: Any objection? 24 MR. TRABULUS: No. 25 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 17-A, 17-E, in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5292 Smith-direct/Scott
1 evidence.
2 (Government's Exhibit 17-A received in evidence.)
3 (Government's Exhibit 17-E received in evidence.)
4 Q Now, do those documents commemorate your purchase of
5 this membership from Who's Who Worldwide?
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q Now, do you see in a box on the middle of the page on
8 17-A, the pink sheet, do you see a box that says a
pproved
9 by?
10 A SMI. Yes, ma'am.
11 Q SMI is the letters typed in under approved by?
12 A Yes, ma'am.
13 Q Also, if you take a look at Government's Exhibit 17-F
14 and 17-G, can you tell us what those are?
15 A 17-F is membership confirmation.
16 Q Does your handwriting appear on that?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q And if you take a look also at 17-G, what is that?
19 A The personal money order from Elliot State Bank,
20 Jacksonville, Illinois.
21 Q That's the money order you used to pay for the
22 membership?
23 A Yes, and I wrote on the corner five year membership, 24 and it is on the check. 25 MR. WHITE: I offer Government's Exhibit 17-G and
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5293 Smith-direct/Scott
1 17-F in evidence.
2 THE COURT: Any objection?
3 MR. TRABULUS: No.
4 TH
E COURT: Government's Exhibit 17-F and 17-G in
5 evidence.
6 (Government's Exhibit 17-F received in evidence.)
7 (Government's Exhibit 17-G received in evidence.)
8 Q Did you send that money order by mail to the company?
9 A Yes, ma'am.
10 Q I am showing you Government's Exhibit 17-B, for
11 Baker, which is in evidence.
12 (Handed to the witness.)
13 Q Have you seen that document before?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q Are you sure you had seen this document before?
16 A I am not sure I saw the document. The information
17 enclosed is submitted to the company, ma'am.
18 Q You recognize the information on that document?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Take a look at the upper right-hand corner on it, do
21 you see a name included there?
22 A It looks like Scott Michaelson. It is Scott,
23 M I C H A E L, but I can't make out the other letters at 24 the end of i
t. 25 Q And the information on the rest of that document is
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5294 Smith-direct/Scott
1 information about yourself; is that correct?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 MS. SCOTT: May I publish
4 Government's Exhibit 17-A, 17-B, 17-E, F and G?
5 THE WITNESS: This is not in my writing. I
6 didn't fill this out.
7 MS. SCOTT: May I publish it to the jury?
8 THE COURT: Yes.
9 MS. SCOTT: Thank you.
10 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published
11 to the jury.)
12 Q Did you receive a plaque, Mr. Smith?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q Did you receive the directory as well?
15 A Yes.
16 Q What did you do with the directory?
17 A Threw it in the corner.
18 Q Why is that?
19 A I was disappointed in it. It was not what they told
20 me.
21 Q Why were you disappo
inted?
22 A The gentleman who had talked to me on the phone told
23 me I would come under a multiple listing, one, health 24 care, and second, research and development or energy, 25 alternative energy products. The writing was very small.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5295 Smith-direct/Scott
1 You had to look for the listing to find it. You can't
2 just open it up to the health care section and find your
3 name. It is not readily available when you open the book
4 up. The printing is very small.
5 Q Were you able to find the person who nominated you?
6 A I didn't even look for him.
7 Q Did you use the book for networking?
8 A I glanced through it when I first got it possibly
9 maybe a half an hour to an hour, and that was the last
10 time I looked at it.
11 Q Did anybody ever call you and tell you they were a
12 member of Who's Who Worldwide and wanted to network with
13 you?
14 A No, ma'am.
15 Q You mentioned another purchase you made from the
16 company, can you tell us about that?
17 A Some months after this, I am not sure how long it was
18 I received a mailing where they had a CD-ROM, the
19 directory on a CD-ROM. And I did purchase that.
20 Q Did you use the CD-ROM?
21 A No.
22 My computer that I had wasn't set up to handle a
23 CD-ROM. 24 Q Did you receive any other items from the company? 25 A A couple of mailings about discounts, credit card
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5296 Smith-direct/Scott
1 discount, and that was about it.
2 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Smith.
3 No further questions.
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
5
6 CROSS-EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. TRABULUS:
8 Q G
ood morning, Mr. Smith. My name is Norman
9 Trabulus. And I am the lawyer for the gentleman seated
10 next to me.
11 Ms. Scott asked you about things you received.
12 Did you ever receive any magazines, Tribute Magazines, do
13 you recall that?
14 A No, I don't.
15 Q Okay.
16 You bought the CD-ROM after you bought the
17 directory; is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And you had already seen what was in the directory at
20 the time you had bought it; is that correct?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And the directory you got, sir, do you recall if it
23 had a red cover on it, or dark cover? 24 A I think it was red, but I am just -- but can I expand 25 a little bit on the CD-ROM.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5297 Smith-cross/Trabulus
1 Q I will ask you some questions about it.
2 A Okay.
3
Q Now, at first, sir, I believe you indicated to
4 Ms. Scott that you were first contacted by mail; is that
5 correct?
6 A Yes, now I am sure that's the way.
7 Q At this point you are, correct?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And there was a time that you filled out a
10 questionnaire for the postal inspectors, that they sent to
11 you; is that correct?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And do you recall when you filled that out and asked
14 how you were contacted, you wrote down telephone call, and
15 followed up by a letter?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And at the time that you filled out the
18 questionnaire, that was the way you remembered it, right,
19 sir?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Since then, has anyone from the government told you
22 indeed if that's the way you were contacted another member
23 had indeed submitted your name? 24 A No, sir. 25 Q Nobo
dy has told you that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5298 Smith-cross/Trabulus
1 A No, sir.
2 Q Now, I take it you have never seen the CD-ROM in
3 operation; is that correct?
4 A No, sir, I did not program the computer for it, no.
5 Q So, you are not in a position to say whether or not
6 it would have anything that would have been of assistance
7 to you; is that correct?
8 A Yes, sir, that's correct.
9 Q And you bought the book to enable you to do something
10 cumbersome for the book itself; is that correct? The book
11 was not broken down by industry, and you wanted to
12 research the material in the directory by industry or
13 topic; is that correct?
14 A Yes, that was my intention.
15 Q Before we get back to the CD-ROM, I will ask you if
16 you know any of these names whom I represent to you are
1
7 people from the directory.
18 First, your office again is in Jacksonville,
19 Illinois; is that correct?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Do you know a Charlotte Sears, a unit manager of
22 Mobile Chemical in Jacksonville?
23 A I know Mobile Chemical, but I don't know her. 24 Q Okay. 25 You wouldn't by chance know, and I will spell
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5299 Smith-cross/Trabulus
1 this completely, Nigra, N I G R A, L Sink, like the sink
2 in a kitchen. She is indicated as being the director of
3 project Unique in the Morgan County Housing Authority in
4 Jacksonville, Illinois?
5 A No, sir I never heard that project.
6 Q Do you know someone with the last name, Virgil E.
7 Smith, County Commissioner?
8 A Yes, I know him.
9 Q Do you know he was a member of Who's Who Worldwide?
10 A No.
1
1 Q You know him personally?
12 A Yes. They didn't tell me --
13 Q M.A. Viles, V I L E S?
14 A Mike Viles, his father was the Buick dealership. I
15 don't know him personally. I know his father. But I know
16 him.
17 Q Okay.
18 Now, you indicated that you were told that there
19 were only 5,000 members?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Could it have been 50,000 and you might have
22 misremembered it?
23 A I don't think so. 24 Q You were expecting among 5,000 people around the 25 world you might know someone in methane fertilizing?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5300 Smith-cross/Trabulus
1 A Let's say I was hoping.
2 Q You weren't told that this was a book whose
3 membership was limited to the specific fields that you
4 were in, were you?
5 A No.
6 Q It was business type people?
7 A Business type people worldwide.
8 Q And the different fields that you were interested in
9 were several different ones, fertilizer; is that correct?
10 A Methane gas energy and organic fertilizer, yes.
11 Q And you indicated nursing homes and health care?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Several different fields?
14 A Yes.
15 Q If I were to tell you that the CD-ROM has over 5,000
16 entries for people in the health care businesses, would
17 that have affected your judgment as to whether or not it
18 might be useful to you?
19 A It depends, because at the time my main decision was
20 the methane gas project. I was in the nursing business at
21 that time for 15 years. I was more interested in the
22 methane gas organic fertilizer project, it was something
23 we were trying to get off the ground. The nursing homes 24 were already doing well. 25 Q It is only methane
you were interested in or
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5301 Smith-cross/Trabulus
1 fertilizer in general?
2 A Sir, there is one project that would entail the
3 production of methane gas to produce electricity and heat
4 for greenhouse growth, herbs and spices, and vegetables,
5 and also to grow talapi fish.
6 THE COURT: How do you spell that?
7 THE WITNESS: T A L A P I.
8 They have to be raised in warm water, that's why
9 you need the methane gas to heat.
10 Q Mr. Smith, what I wanted to know is in terms of
11 contacting people in other businesses, you would have been
12 interested only in people who specifically listed methane;
13 is that it?
14 A No.
15 Q Or fertilizer in general?
16 A Methane gas and organic fertilizer.
17 Q Would it have affected your judgment concerning the
18 possibl
e value of the CD-ROM if you were to know, and I
19 was going to show you my computer with
20 Defendant's Exhibit S in it, that there were 44 entries in
21 the book for people who had companies relating to
22 fertilizer --
23 A Uh-huh. 24 Q -- including a variety I am listing here, you can 25 pick any one of them, farm supplies, national earth
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5302 Smith-cross/Trabulus
1 quanos?
2 THE COURT: Natural earth what?
3 MR. TRABULUS: Guanos, G U A N O S.
4 Q Would you like to pick one of them?
5 A For what.
6 Q To see if they are involved --
7 A My son worked in farm service, and I talked to him
8 several times about the project.
9 Q You see there is an entry for the same business that
10 your son works for?
11 A My son-in-law, farm service cooperative.
12 Q
That's one of them listed?
13 A Yes.
14 Q That would have been an appropriate person to
15 contact?
16 A No, I know they sell chemical fertilizer and make
17 more money off chemical fertilizer than they would off
18 organics, so they wouldn't be interested.
19 Q You found that out by speaking to your son?
20 A Son-in-law, and other guys.
21 Q If it turned out your son-in-law didn't work for
22 them, another way to find out is to speak to the person
23 there? 24 A After spending 12 years on this project, sir, I know 25 that Monsanto, and the major chemical companies do not
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5303 Smith-cross/Trabulus
1 want to talk about organic fertilizers. It wouldn't do
2 any good seeing those names anyway.
3 Q How about Dennis L. Kenzy, K E N Z Y, and he is the
4 owner of regional dist
ribution of natural earth guanos,
5 and his major product service is selling organic natural
6 farm fertilizer, with an expertise in --
7 THE COURT: I don't know who is talking faster,
8 Mr. Smith or you, he may be talking faster than you are,
9 which makes for a new world record, Mr. Trabulus. Between
10 the two of you, I am going like a ping-pong game here.
11 MR. TRABULUS: I slept too well.
12 THE COURT: I would like to know what is a
13 quano?
14 THE WITNESS: A South African animal.
15 THE COURT: A South African animal?
16 MR. TRABULUS: It is my understanding that the
17 word "quano".
18 THE COURT: I didn't ask you. You are not under
19 oath?
20 MR. TRABULUS: No.
21 THE COURT: So don't tell me.
22 MR. TRABULUS: We may have a dictionary near that
23 we may want to take judicial notice of the contents of. 24 THE COURT: No, I want
to just ask the witness 25 what it is.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5304 Smith-cross/Trabulus
1 THE WITNESS: I don't know. It sounds like a
2 lizard, iguana.
3 This is garden fertilizer.
4 You don't go selling --
5 THE COURT: You will have to repeat that last
6 statement.
7 THE WITNESS: It says organic natural farm garden
8 fertilizer. And we are a project producing 13 and a half
9 million gallons of liquid fertilizer a year, I will not
10 waste the time with gardeners. It is impossible to
11 market.
12 Q This particular entry shows natural farm?
13 A I see that.
14 Q He is not just a farmer but a regional distributor,
15 do you feel he might be interested in producing a
16 substantial amount?
17 A The type of fertilizer we would be producing would be
18 suitable for rice farming,
for forestry or shrubbery,
19 beans and corns maybe. But mainly it would be rice
20 farming and shrubbery and trees, that kind of a thing, not
21 just general farming.
22 Q So, you were hoping among the 5,000 people in
23 business generally throughout the entire world, you might 24 find somebody whose field was just that specific as you 25 indicated now that would be suitable for networking with
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5305 Smith-cross/Trabulus
1 you, as opposed to someone who is a distributor of natural
2 farm fertilizer parts; is that correct, sir?
3 A I don't know, because I did not look to see at the
4 CD-ROM. I didn't know it was in there. So honestly, I
5 don't know.
6 Q I understand.
7 When you paid -- when you acquired the directory,
8 it involved an additional payment?
9 A Yes. The 291 includ
ed the directory.
10 Q Included it from the outset?
11 A I think so. There was an additional $97 payment, I
12 think.
13 Q And certainly this was not a situation where you had
14 not been told initially what you would have to be paid.
15 You understood initially what you would be having to pay?
16 A The gentleman on the phone told me, yes.
17 Q Thank you.
18 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions. Thank you.
19 MR. JENKS: I have a few questions, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: Do you want to pick up the exhibits,
21 Ms. Scott, please?
22 MS. SCOTT: Surely.
23 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION 25 BY MR. JENKS:
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5306 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 Q Mr. Smith, did you ever ask anyone in Jacksonville,
2 Illinois whether or not they nominated you for inclusion
3 in this directory?
4 A No.
5 Q Did you ever ask or inquire of any of the people that
6 Mr. Trabulus just read to you, as to whether or not they
7 could have put your name in as a candidate?
8 A No.
9 Q So, is it fair to say as you sit here today you are
10 not even sure whether in fact someone had in fact
11 nominated you; is that correct?
12 A I just took the man's word for it. Evidently, if it
13 is not true, they lied, because I don't know if that's
14 true or not.
15 Q Let me ask you this: Just try to listen to the
16 question and see if you can answer it directly, yes or
17 no.
18 As you sit here today, do you know for sure
19 whether or not someone actually nominated you?
20 A No.
21 Q All right.
22 You had testified with Ms. Scott that the most
23 important thing for your purchase in the membership was 24 worldwide recognition, and that someone
had nominated you; 25 is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5307 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 A Not recognition, no. That was not part of it.
2 Q Worldwide business contacts?
3 A Possibly, yes.
4 Q And that someone had nominated you; is that correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Now, you filled out a questionnaire for the
7 government; is that right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Is it fair to say you filled out that questionnaire
10 in June of 1995?
11 A Yes.
12 Q You have to answer, sir.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Was your memory better in June of 1995 than it is
15 today?
16 A I wouldn't say -- I wouldn't know. As I thought
17 about this case -- in June of 1995 I had forgotten about
18 the thing altogether.
19 Q Let me ask you this: You related the sum and
20 substance you had with the salesperson here i
n this
21 courtroom; is that correct?
22 A Pardon?
23 Q You told us about the conversation you had with the 24 salesperson; am I right? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5308 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 Q Just moments ago?
2 A Yes. But I don't know if the salesperson is in this
3 room. I don't know --
4 Q You have to listen to the question and answer yes or
5 no.
6 A You said he is in the room. And I don't know that.
7 Q I didn't ask you if he was in the room, sir. I said,
8 did you relate the sum and substance of a conversation you
9 had with the salesperson?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And you had that conversation back in April of 1993;
12 is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And we are in February of 1998, am I right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Almost five years later, right?
17 A Y
es.
18 Q Did you make any handwritten notes with respect to
19 the sum and substance of the conversation you had with
20 that salesperson?
21 A I wrote down when he called me, I wrote some notes on
22 the amount he is talking about, the money, of what it
23 would cost. 24 Q Do you have those handwritten notes with you? 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5309 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 Q Did you throw it out?
2 A No, but I have boxes of stuff and I would have to
3 find them. I didn't look for them.
4 Q You didn't look for them before you testified today;
5 is that right?
6 A No.
7 Q And you didn't review them to see what you and he
8 said over the phone?
9 A I don't have to look at them. I remember.
10 Q You said worldwide business contacts and the issue of
11 nomination were the most
important reasons why you had
12 purchased the membership; is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q You recall filling out this questionnaire; am I
15 correct?
16 A The one --
17 Q Is that the one the government asked you to fill out?
18 A That Ms. Scott showed me, yes.
19 Q Let me ask you this: Do you recall being asked in
20 the questionnaire a question as to what was the primary
21 reason for your decision to purchase a directory or
22 becoming a member, do you recall?
23 A I don't know. There were several pages of 24 questioning. So I don't remember. 25 Q You don't remember all the questioning?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5310 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 A Not all of them, no.
2 Q Take a look at question 25 and see if that refreshes
3 your recollection as to whether you were asked that
4 question.
5 A Yes.
6 Q And do you know what you answered to the question?
7 A Yes. It says to read about some other people's
8 achievements.
9 Q The question says. What was the primary reason for
10 your decision to purchase a directory or become a member,
11 right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you responded in this questionnaire back in 1995,
14 to read about other people's achievements; is that
15 correct?
16 A In 1995, yes, I did.
17 Q So, that's a lot different than worldwide business
18 contacts and the fact that someone had nominated you,
19 isn't it?
20 A If you ask the gentleman who called me, we discussed
21 the facts of the nomination and worldwide distribution,
22 and that is what at the time that determined my
23 membership. 24 Q All right. 25 But when you had to answer this question in 1995,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP
, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5311 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 what was the primary reason, you wrote down in your own
2 handwriting, to read about other people's achievements; is
3 that correct?
4 A Obviously when I got --
5 THE COURT: Hold everything.
6 On cross-examination -- you see, the first lawyer
7 that examined you, Ms. Scott, she is what we call direct
8 examination.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 THE COURT: She put you on the stand.
11 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
12 THE COURT: You are a government witness.
13 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
14 THE COURT: And as such, since she put you on the
15 stand, she cannot ask you leading questions. She has to
16 just ask you questions that are non-suggestive in form.
17 But on cross-examination under our rules,
18 Mr. Smith, the cross-examiner is permitted to ask very
19 narrow questions calling for a yes
or no answer.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 THE COURT: Now, if you can't answer yes or no,
22 say so. Say exactly those words, I can't answer that
23 question yes or no. 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. 25 THE COURT: But don't make an explanation.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5312 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 THE WITNESS: Okay.
2 THE COURT: Because that -- the lawyer will move
3 to strike the explanation.
4 THE WITNESS: Okay.
5 THE COURT: This way, if you say I can't answer
6 yes or no, that shifts the burden back to Mr. Jenks to
7 decide what he is going to do.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay.
9 THE COURT: Understand our procedure?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 THE WITNESS: I cannot answer yes or no.
13 THE COURT: If you don't know or don't remember,
14 of course, freely say that. You un
derstand?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
16 Q Did you write down in response to what was the
17 primary reason for your decision to purchase a membership,
18 to read about other people's achievements, did you write
19 that down in 1995?
20 A Yes, sir. That's in my writing.
21 Q You put that in the questionnaire in direct response
22 to that question; is that correct?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q You didn't write in this questionnaire that worldwide 25 business contacts or the fact that someone had nominated
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5313 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 me was my primary reason to purchase a membership?
2 A No, I did not right that.
3 Q You did not write that?
4 A No, I did not.
5 Q Let me make sure I understand this.
6 You claim that this salesperson had told you that
7 there are approximately 5
,000 members; is that correct?
8 A He said it was limited to 5,000.
9 Q 5,000 members.
10 And I think you said there are only four or five
11 memberships available; is that right?
12 A That's what he said.
13 Q You say as you sit here today that he said there were
14 two deaths, so there is an availability for you to get
15 into the registry; is that correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Did I hear you correctly?
18 A Yes.
19 Q All right.
20 You made three separate purchases concerning this
21 membership; am I correct?
22 A No.
23 Q Let's start from the beginning. 24 In April of 1993 you became a member, right? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5314 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 Q All right.
2 You paid -- you went and got a cashier's check
3 and sent it to the company, right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And that was for some $290; is that right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And then, sometime in 1993 you sent in another check
8 for $97 to obtain the registry; am I right?
9 A For the 291, I understood the salesman, included the
10 first payment on the registry, and the 97 was the balance.
11 Q The 97 was for the balance?
12 A Yes.
13 Q When you paid the 97, is it a fair statement to say
14 that you then got the registry, correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And when you saw the registry, you said, and I think
17 you said you threw it in the corner?
18 A I just tossed it in the corner, yes.
19 Q And before -- you had the registry before you bought
20 the CD-ROM; am I correct?
21 A Right.
22 Q So, in other words, you looked at that registry, am I
23 right? 24 A Yes. 25 Q At least a half an hour, an hour before you threw it
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5315 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 in the corner?
2 THE COURT: One minute, Mr. Jenks.
3 You will have to wait a little bit before the end
4 of the question before you answer. Because if you answer
5 at the same time, while the lawyer is still finishing his
6 question, it is going to make it very difficult for us to
7 hear your answer.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay.
9 THE COURT: And for the reporter to record it.
10 He has to put down every single word exactly as it is
11 stated.
12 THE WITNESS: Okay.
13 THE COURT: And that makes it very difficult to
14 do that.
15 Q You look at the entry, looked at it before you threw
16 it in the corner?
17 A When I say I threw it in the corner, I have lots and
18 lots of books and papers, and I just set it aside.
19 Q The question is: Did you look at
it before you set
20 it aside?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And you were able to see, were you not, that there
23 were at least 40 or 50 thousand members in that book; is 24 that correct? 25 A I didn't count them.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5316 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 Q You knew it was more than 5,000?
2 A Yes, I knew there was.
3 Q Just looking at the book you can tell it was more
4 than 5,000; is that correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And did it appear to you that there were maybe four
7 or five members each year for the book based on the size
8 of the book?
9 A At that time I didn't care.
10 Q When you threw the book aside, you realized at that
11 time there was certainly more than 5,000 members?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And there were many more members than you say the
14 salesperson told you over the p
hone?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Nevertheless, you went out and sent a third check for
17 a CD-ROM; am I correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q How much did that cost you?
20 A I don't remember the amount. I think it was 100 some
21 dollars. I am not sure.
22 Q A hundred something dollars.
23 You had paid 291, or thereabouts, right? 24 A Yes. 25 Q First payment?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5317 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 A Yes.
2 Q You made another payment of 97 dollars at some point
3 for the directory, correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And then on top of that you went out and purchased a
6 CD-ROM; am I right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you sent three separate checks to this company;
9 is that correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And is it fair to say that nobody called you up for
12 the $97 for the directory;
am I right?
13 A At the time the gentleman explained it to me
14 originally, he said the balance would be $97 due -- I
15 think he said like November of that year.
16 Q Okay.
17 You got an invoice in the mail; is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q You didn't question the invoice, you paid it?
20 A When I took the invoice I agreed to pay the fee.
21 Q Were you discontented from the time you took the
22 membership in April of '93, up until November of '93 when
23 you sent in the $97? 24 A I was dissatisfied with the directory when I got it, 25 yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5318 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 Q Before you got the directory, were you dissatisfied
2 with the directory?
3 A No, because I didn't --
4 Q So, you were happy from April of'93, to November of
5 '93, when you sent in a check for the
directory, correct?
6 A I don't know how you mean happy. Why would I be
7 unhappy about it?
8 Q You weren't dissatisfied with the company, were you?
9 A No, because I had no more dealings with them since
10 April.
11 Q And then in November of 1993, you get an invoice in
12 the mail, a bill; is that right?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And you make out another check and send it in for
15 '93; is that right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And you get the directory, right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And obviously you were still not discontented because
20 you then agreed to purchase a CD-ROM; am I right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And nobody called you up from the company and tried
23 to persuade to you purchase the CD-ROM; is that correct? 24 A Yes, I got a call on the CD-ROM. 25 Q You got a separate call on the CD-ROM?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT R
EPORTER 5319 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 A I got a letter originally. And then as I remember,
2 they said the CD-ROM was -- the contents on the CD-ROM was
3 what was in the directory with the updates.
4 Q Did you tell them that you were dissatisfied with the
5 directory?
6 A No.
7 Q Did you tell them that you thought there were 5,000
8 members and it turns out there is a hell of a lot more
9 than the 5,000 members?
10 A No, at that time it didn't do any good, I didn't pay
11 them.
12 Q Did you tell them you threw the directory on the --
13 A Yes, I told them --
14 Q You have to wait until I finish the question, I can't
15 fight with you here.
16 A Okay.
17 Q Did you tell them you were dissatisfied with the
18 directory when they called you up with respect to the --
19 when they called you with the CD-ROM?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Nevertheless you bought the CD-ROM of your own
22 volition?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And even after you were, quote, dissatisfied with the 25 directory?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5320 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 A Yes.
2 Q And did you tell them you were dissatisfied with the
3 directory?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Did you tell them that had to be more than four or
6 five memberships available?
7 A No.
8 Q Did you tell them that there couldn't have been just
9 two deaths to allow you to get in there?
10 A No.
11 Q So, the way I understand it is you were dissatisfied
12 with the directory, but nevertheless you agreed to
13 purchase a CD-ROM and spend another yet $100?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Obviously you weren't happy with the company or the
16 services provided by that point; is that correct?
17 A By that time -- I can't answer yes or no.
18 Q I will ask you an open ended question, and you can
19 say whatever you want.
20 Why would you purchase a CD-ROM after you get a
21 directory that you are not happy with?
22 A Because they said the CD-ROM was an update and it
23 improved, an improvement on the list, on the book. 24 Q You weren't satisfied with the book? 25 A I said you didn't put a multiple listing of health
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5321 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 care. They told me, the person on the phone says I am not
2 the one who publishes the book, I can't do the publishing
3 and I can't control it, but the CD-ROM is an upgrade and
4 improvement over the book. That's why I published the
5 CD-ROM.
6 Q Obviously when you purchased the CD-ROM, you still
7 had not wondered who had nominated you?
8 A I never did know.
9 Q Did you ever look in the book to try to figure out
10 who it was that did nominate you?
11 A No.
12 Q I want to make sure I heard you correctly. You said
13 you bought the CD-ROM and never put it in your computer?
14 A No.
15 Q Did you ever put it in anyone else's computer?
16 A No.
17 Q You just threw away $100 on something you wouldn't
18 use?
19 A I didn't throw it away, I thought I would use it.
20 Q You never used it?
21 A No.
22 Q How would you know you would be happy with the
23 contents of the CD-ROM unless you gave it a try to use it? 24 A Might have been, not the directory. 25 Q How could you be dissatisfied with the services the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5322 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 company provided and you had voluntarily agreed to
2 pur
chase if you didn't even try it out?
3 A I was dissatisfied with the directory.
4 Q You looked at the directory for a half an hour, an
5 hour?
6 A I said a half an hour. Maybe it was an hour. I
7 don't know.
8 Q You used the word -- you know, in your direct
9 testimony you used the word five or six times, I believe,
10 nominate; is that correct?
11 A Pardon me?
12 Q When Ms. Scott was asking you questions, you kept
13 using the word "nominated"?
14 A Yes my name was put in nomination.
15 Q I heard you say the word "nominated" five or six
16 times, right?
17 Taking a look at your questionnaire now,
18 3500-CES-1 for Identification.
19 A Okay.
20 Q Show me anywhere in the questionnaire any place where
21 you used the word nominated?
22 A It says my name was submitted for --
23 Q You have to listen to the question. Look at the
24 questionnaire, tell me if you wrote down the word 25 "nominated" anywhere in the questionnaire, the word in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5323 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 your handwriting?
2 A I understand nominated being the same thing as
3 submitted is.
4 Q You are not answering the question.
5 A No, it is not in there.
6 Q You never wrote down the word "nominated" to a single
7 question there?
8 A Yes, I should say submitted for inclusion.
9 Q You didn't say nominated?
10 A No, I didn't.
11 Q You used the word in your testimony five or six
12 times, nominated?
13 A That's the word the gentleman used on the phone.
14 Q That's the word the government used?
15 A No, the man told me my name was put in nomination.
16 The government never told me what to say. The fact is it
17 was submitt
ed for nomination. That's why I wrote
18 "submitted."
19 Q You never wrote the word "nominated" once on the
20 questionnaire?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q All right.
23 Now, Ms. Scott ask you if mailing lists were used 24 you would not have selected to be a member; is that right? 25 A No, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5324 Smith-cross/Jenks
1 Q What if you had learned that selective mailing lists
2 were in fact used to target people in methane gas, health
3 care, organic soil, would you have joined then?
4 A Yes. But I wasn't told that.
5 Q You would have?
6 As you sit here today, if I told you that a
7 selective mailing list that targeted a specific segment of
8 your community or your line of work was used, would you
9 have become a member?
10 A I would definitely have considered it, yes.
11 MR. JENKS: Thank you very much.
12 I have nothing further, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Anyone else.
14
15 CROSS-EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. NEVILLE:
17 Q Hi, Mr. Smith.
18 A Good morning.
19 Q I am Jim Neville. I represent Scott Michaelson.
20 Do you know what kind of case this is here, sir?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What kind of a case is this?
23 A Criminal. 24 Q You know these people are here on trial for criminal 25 charges?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5325 Smith-cross/Neville
1 A Yes.
2 Q When Mr. Trabulus was asking you questions about
3 networking, have you ever heard of the product, Miracle
4 Grow?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Do you know anything about the background of that,
7 how the person came up with that?
8 A No. I have just seen advertisements, commercial on
9 television.
10 Q I think it was developed by somebody and marketed and
11 they became very rich, didn't they?
12 A They oh, yes.
13 Q Let me ask you this: I know you work with
14 fertilizers, and I commend you for organic fertilizers.
15 That's good stuff.
16 If you were able to come up with something along
17 the lines of Miracle Grow, that you could market to
18 gardeners, people who either did or didn't have green
19 thumbs, in my case, I don't have one, would you then do
20 that, market it and potentially make money from that? Is
21 that something you would consider?
22 A I don't know. That was not the field I was in.
23 That's not what I was trying to develop. 24 Q But do you remember when Mr. Trabulus showed you the 25 entry in the CD-ROM, the gardeners, somebody having to do
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5326 Smith-cross/Neville
1 with gardening, do you remember that?
2 A Yes.
3 Q You said you wouldn't be interested in that, right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What if along your lines of your organic fertilizer
6 you came up with something that you could market to
7 regular old gardeners, and would end up being something
8 like Miracle Grow, would you do that?
9 A I don't know. I didn't think of something like that.
10 Q It sounds like a pretty good idea, wasn't it?
11 A Yes. Whoever did that made a lot of money.
12 Q Maybe you and I can talk about this after you
13 testify?
14 A Hey, all right. You got 60 million dollars I will
15 talk. That's what it cost to build one of these plants.
16 Q When Ms. Scott was asking you some questions on
17 direct examination you talked about the most important
18 reason that you joined this Who's Who Worldwide, the fact
19 that you were nominated; is that right?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q I think one of the lawyers went over this already,
22 but you do remember filling out the questionnaire?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q That the government sent you, the postal inspector? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5327 Smith-cross/Neville
1 Q And in that, do you remember the question being asked
2 what was the most important statement or representation
3 made by the government which affected your decision to
4 purchase a directory to become -- or become a member? And
5 do you remember saying, I do not remember?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Did you talk to Ms. Scott before you got up there on
8 the witness stand today?
9 A Last week when I started making arrangements to come
10 out here.
11 Q How did you come out here?
12 A
By Amtrack.
13 Q Did you pay for the train ticket?
14 A No.
15 Q Why didn't you fly?
16 A Because seven years ago I had some headache problem.
17 It affects my equilibrium. If I fly direct it is all
18 right. But if I have to circle or a holding pattern it
19 causes dizziness and I have problems sometimes flying,
20 going into New York I thought we might have some problem.
21 Q I thought you were like John Madden, he is afraid to
22 fly.
23 A I don't have a half a million dollar bus. 24 Q What do you call that, a Madden bus? 25 A I can't afford that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5328 Smith-cross/Neville
1 Q Maybe if we make some money on the fertilizer we can
2 get one?
3 A Maybe we will have to make a kind of deal like that.
4 Q You never made any complaint to the better business
5 bureau
or anything like that?
6 A We don't have any better business bureau in
7 Jacksonville. We are kind in the back of the woods a bit.
8 Q Before you got this kind of questionnaire from a
9 postal inspector, you never complained to anybody?
10 A Not over four, five hundred bucks, no.
11 Q Now, did you deduct that from your taxes by any
12 chance?
13 A Absolutely not, no.
14 MR. NEVILLE: Inspector Jordan, would that be
15 okay?
16 Q Why don't you do that?
17 A I have lots of expenses that I don't deduct from my
18 taxes.
19 Q You better get a better accountant?
20 A No, if I earn the money I don't worry about my taxes.
21 Q Now, the government asked you about anybody
22 contacting you from Who's Who. Any other members
23 contacting you; do you remember that? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And you said, no, nobody contacted you?
HARRY
RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5329 Smith-cross/Neville
1 A No, they did not.
2 Q Do you know what the term networking is?
3 A Yes, computer, mostly, not always, but mostly. Not
4 always. Now it is. It hasn't always been that.
5 Q Let's say you and I end up doing the fertilizer deal,
6 that would have meant that you networked when you came to
7 this trial, right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You know that kind of networking?
10 A Contact, yes.
11 Q You meet somebody and hit it big, maybe not, but you
12 give it a try, right?
13 A Right.
14 Q So, the very nature of networking suggests a
15 proactive, an active involvement is required on your part,
16 right?
17 A If I know who to network with.
18 Q Okay. But you have to do something. You have to
19 open the book, you have to read the CD-ROM, you have to
20 pick up
the phone, you have to put your hand out to shake
21 that other guy's hands, stuff like that, right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Networking is developing contact for business 24 purposes? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5330 Smith-cross/Neville
1 Q And it suggests that you have to work to develop that
2 net, where you are going to catch those business contacts;
3 is that right?
4 A I guess I was lazy there. I didn't do it.
5 Q I will tell you, I bet I am lazier than you are.
6 Now, how about, did you send out any press
7 releases on this when you became a member?
8 A No.
9 Q Do you know how powerful a press release can be when
10 you are announcing your slash into the world of organic
11 fertilizers, and you never know, you may have hit the
12 Miracle Grow or something?
13 A The press release sa
ying I am included or inclusion
14 in Who's Who Worldwide would have been self gratifying. I
15 wasn't looking for that. Where I live at, there is nobody
16 involved in organic fertilizer, or locally, you know,
17 within a radius where I live at, it wouldn't have done no
18 good anyway as far as organic fertilizers are concerned.
19 Q Well, if you put out a press release gone further
20 out, a wider net of networking outside of your local area,
21 maybe you could have made a contact that way?
22 A I did not do that.
23 Q You can't do it? 24 A No. I didn't say I can't. I just didn't do it. 25 Q You were lazy, weren't you?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5331 Smith-cross/Neville
1 A To me that's self gratifying, patting yourself on the
2 back. I didn't want to do that, that's not why I did that
3 for.
4 Q Do you
manufacture a good product?
5 A When we get the plant built, yes.
6 Q It is going to be an excellent product?
7 A Yes.
8 Q That you believe in?
9 A Yes, I wouldn't have spent 12 years on it.
10 Q It is your whole life?
11 A No. I have other projects I am involved in.
12 Q It is an important part of your life?
13 A Yes, definitely.
14 Q When you get the factory up and running, are you
15 going to do any advertising or public relations to it?
16 A I have other people handling that. I just do the
17 work.
18 Q You will have another person handling it?
19 A Yes. We have a marketer.
20 Q Do you have a name for it yet?
21 A Black Water Organics.
22 Q You will have some kind of public relations deal by
23 people who do that sort of thing to get the name up there, 24 get the name out there, right? 25 A No. The first plan we will d
o our own -- I will have
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5332 Smith-cross/Neville
1 people working with me on the project that will do the
2 marketing. We will be contacting rice farmers in Arkansas
3 or Mississippi, because they have the farms. Until we
4 produce the full 13.5 million gallons a year, until we get
5 the full production, we don't need marketing to sell that
6 much. And the people I know in Arkansas and Mississippi,
7 they will make personal contact with the rice farms and we
8 will try to market the rice farms and a few large
9 nurseries. About 70 miles from us there is a one of the
10 largest nurseries in the mid-west, we will send people
11 there and try to market them and sell them.
12 Q When you first start out and your production is
13 relatively limited because you are first starting out,
14 your networkin
g is going to be limited, because you don't
15 want to get more orders than you fill?
16 A Yes. It would be personal contact with the people
17 working with me now, with our prospective buyers.
18 Q And those personal contacts you have are your way to
19 start to spread the word on your product?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Now, what are you going to do -- what are you going
22 to do if your product turns out to be just as darn good as
23 you think it is? 24 A It is. 25 Q And it starts to catch on and starts to -- the word
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5333 Smith-cross/Neville
1 spreads? Are you going to market it further domestically?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And what happens if in Europe and South America, and
4 Asia, and other areas of the world decide that want also
5 to find out how it works, are you going to try to market
6 it worldwide?
7 A I already have people in Europe that I deal with,
8 that will handle the marketing and the development over
9 there.
10 Q You are planning on doing that?
11 A Yeah, eventually.
12 Q If it catches on you will let it go and see how far
13 it goes, right?
14 A Right.
15 Q I wish you luck.
16 A Thank you.
17 A lot of people haven't. Thank you.
18 THE COURT: Anything else?
19 MS. SCOTT: A brief redirect, your Honor.
20
21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
22 BY MS. SCOTT:
23 Q Mr. Smith, do you remember being asked some questions 24 on cross-examination about answers that you gave to that 25 questionnaire?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5334 Smith-redirect/Scott
1 A Yes.
2 Q Now, specifically, do you remember being asked about
3 the answers that you
gave to questions 25 and 26?
4 A 25, yes. 26 --
5 Q You were asked in particular what you had said as
6 your answer to the question, what were your primary
7 reasons for purchasing this membership?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And you were -- you wrote on that questionnaire that
10 the primary reasons were to read about other people's
11 achievements; is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Now, question number 26, you were also asked there,
14 what were the most important statements and
15 representations made by the company which affected your
16 decision to purchase; do you remember that question in the
17 questionnaire?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q Do you remember writing there that I don't remember?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 MR. NELSON: Objection.
22 THE COURT: Did I hear something?
23 MR. NELSON: Objection. 24 THE COURT: Overruled. 25 Q Do you r
emember being asked about the testimony you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5335 Smith-redirect/Scott
1 gave today, about the most important reasons you purchased
2 the membership?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q You remember testifying the reasons were the
5 worldwide exposure and the fact that your name was
6 submitted by a member?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q Now, if you take a look at question number 15 on that
9 questionnaire, would you read that for a moment to
10 yourself.
11 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
12 proceedings.)
13 Q Now, the question asks you, if you were told anything
14 about how the company obtained your name, how does this
15 affect your decision to purchase or obtain a membership.
16 You see that there?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 MR. JENKS: Objection.
19 THE COURT: Wha
t grounds?
20 MR. JENKS: She read something not in evidence,
21 she read the precise words, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: No. I rule it is in response to your
23 cross-examination in particular. Overruled. 24 Q Now, do you remember answering that question in the 25 questionnaire?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5336 Smith-redirect/Scott
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 THE COURT: In other words, supposedly to
3 complete the picture, supposedly.
4 Go ahead.
5 Q If you look at the questionnaire, can you tell us how
6 you answered that questions, if you were told, how it
7 would have affected your decision to purchase?
8 A I said if someone went to the trouble to recommend me
9 I would join or submit or apply for membership.
10 Q So, back when you filled out the questionnaire the
11 fact that someone had recommended you wa
s important; is
12 that correct?
13 A Yes, because I was -- can I go on?
14 Q Yes, you can.
15 A Because I was working on the project for many years,
16 most people thought we were a nut because we -- they
17 weren't interested in organic fertilizer and we got a lot
18 of doors slammed in our face. And I felt someone thought
19 the project was viable. They wouldn't submit for Charles
20 Smith, because I was involved in nursing homes. So I felt
21 it was someone who knew I was involved in the project,
22 someone that mattered or I had communicated with, and
23 that's why I did this, and I felt it was very important, 24 yes. 25 Q Do you remember being asked if you looked in the book
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5337 Smith-redirect/Scott
1 for who had nominated you?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And do you remember sa
ying you had not looked for the
4 person who had nominated you in the book?
5 A Can I explain what I did when I looked in the book?
6 Q That's what we would like, thank you.
7 A First I looked for my listing. Then I probably spent
8 45 minutes to an hour total. And the people I saw through
9 those pages I looked at, and the names I looked at,
10 nothing said anything about organic fertilizer, methane
11 gas. And after I looked at many listings and I didn't see
12 anything, honestly I was very disappointed, because I felt
13 it was going to be under two listings, health care, and
14 alternative energy sources, that's what I understood when
15 the gentleman on the phone talked to me. When it wasn't I
16 didn't go any further in the book. I didn't look for
17 anybody's name that could have nominated me. They told me
18 the person may not be a current member, he may have been a
19 member a bunch of years ago, because in fact, the
20 attrition or the openings on the list, it could have been
21 years ago when the nomination or submission was made.
22 Q Do you remember being asked about mailing lists, the
23 use of mailing lists? 24 A They did not say anything about it at all. 25 Q Do you remember being asked the question?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5338 Smith-redirect/Scott
1 A Yes. I was asked the question, yes, ma'am.
2 Q Do you remember being asked if the mailing lists were
3 selective, if you would have been interested in joining?
4 A If it had been selective and they had told me that, I
5 would definitely have been interested in looking at it and
6 seeing it.
7 Q You mentioned if they told you that. Do you mean if
8 at the time of the purchase they told you that?
9 A If they to
ld me at the time I was talking on the
10 phone with the gentlemen, if I was told there was a
11 mailing list involved, or people on lists interested in
12 these kind of projects, yes, I was interested.
13 Q Being recommended by another member, Mr. Smith, the
14 same thing as being taken from a mailing list?
15 MR. JENKS: Objection.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 Q If your name was taken from a mailing list, is that
18 something you would have wanted to know at the time of the
19 purchase?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And were you told that at the time of the purchase?
22 A No.
23 MS. SCOTT: No further questions. Thank you. 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5339 Smith-recross/Trabulus
1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. TRABULUS:
3 Q Mr. Smith, when you spoke to the salesperson on the
4 phone
, he didn't tell you that the company did not use
5 mailing lists, did he?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q As you sit here now you don't know one way or another
8 if your name came from a mailing list or nominated by
9 someone, such as the names of the people I read to you
10 before?
11 A Correct.
12 Q And I think you indicated some dissatisfaction with
13 the way your name was enteFF0000; is that correct, in the
14 directory; is that correct? Do I understand you were
15 dissatisfied with the way your entry read?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Was it your concern that you were not listed as being
18 involved in both fertilizers and nursing homes?
19 A Multiple listing, yes.
20 Q Well, the listing does indicate among your businesses
21 multiple things, does it not?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q It indicates among your businesses, health care, 24 energy products, nursing homes,
organic fertilizer and 25 methane gas, does it not, sir?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5340 Smith-recross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q So, you are shown as having multiple businesses; is
3 that correct?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Now, if I were to tell you that the CD-ROM indicates
6 497 people in the nursing home business including
7 yourself, does it affect the fact that you might have been
8 able to utilize that if you were to get it up on your
9 computer?
10 A Not really, because by 1984, 1995 I got out of the
11 nursing home business in the state of Illinois.
12 Q But you listed it?
13 A That was my expertise after 26 years.
14 Q If in fact it wasn't useful to you, it is certainly
15 not something you could in any way, shape or form blame on
16 Who's Who Worldwide; is it? You could have got --
1
7 A It could have been useful to me, we were working on
18 nurses homes in Mississippi and Louisiana at that time.
19 Some development projects may have located themselves down
20 there.
21 Q It might have been useful if some of the people of
22 the 497 were in Louisiana and Mississippi?
23 A And Arkansas, and some other states. 24 Q Before I went into the fertilizer industry, if I were 25 to tell you that those five, including yourself were
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5341 Smith-recross/Trabulus
1 specifically categorized in organic fertilizer, would it
2 have indicated to you it might have been useful to you if
3 you managed to get a computer to accommodate a CD-ROM?
4 A I don't know. Could I explain something?
5 Q No. You have to answer yes or no, if you can.
6 A I don't know. Would you repeat the question?
7 Q
Sure.
8 If I were to tell you five out of the 500
9 listing, including yourself would have been organic
10 fertilizer, it might have made the CD-ROM useful for what
11 you were looking for?
12 A Possibly.
13 MR. TRABULUS: That's all.
14 MR. JENKS: Nothing further.
15 THE COURT: Anything else?
16 MS. SCOTT: Nothing else.
17 THE COURT: You may step down, Mr. Smith.
18 Please call your next witness.
19 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the
20 witness stand.)
21 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I believe I am going to
22 play a tape at this time.
23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, we just need one minute 25 to cue it up to the right place.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5342
1 THE COURT: Very well.
2 MR. WHITE: We are going to play Exhibit 1399.
3 The transcr
ipt is 1399A.
4 The date is January 31st, 1995. And it was made
5 by an employee working at Who's Who Worldwide, and on the
6 tape is Frank Martin.
7 (Tape is played.)
8 THE COURT: Hold it a moment. I did not find
9 this, what number is this?
10 MR. WHITE: 1399.
11 THE COURT: Sorry.
12 Hold it a minute and start it over again.
13 THE CLERK: I believe one of the jurors is
14 missing the transcript.
15 THE COURT: All right, for the time being would
16 you look on with somebody else.
17 MR. WHITE: We have an extra one.
18 THE COURT: All right, give the extra one to the
19 juror.
20 You may proceed.
21 MR. WHITE: I will rewind it first.
22 (Tape is played.)
23 THE COURT: Is that the end of that tape? 24 MR. WHITE: Yes. 25 THE COURT: We will take a 15 minute recess.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIA
L COURT REPORTER 5343
1 Keep an open mind, and come to no conclusions.
2 Please recess the jury, madam deputy.
3 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
4 courtroom.)
5
6 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
7
8 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
9 courtroom.)
10 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
11 jury. I am sorry to have kept you. I had another matter
12 which was supposed to take place at 9:00 o'clock. There
13 was some mix up. They didn't come in at 9:00 o'clock.
14 You know what happens when they don't come in at
15 9:00 o'clock. They are in big trouble. So I said wait
16 until 11:00 when we take a break. I will have you and
17 everyone else in the courtroom wait for them when they
18 didn't come in on time?
19 You may proceed.
20 MS. SCOTT: The government calls Karen Wood.
21
THE CLERK: Would you say please raise your right
22 hand.
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5344
1 K A R E N W O O D ,
2 called as a witness, having been first
3 duly sworn, was examined and testified
4 as follows:
5
6 THE CLERK: Please be seated. Keep your voice
7 up. State and spell your name for the record.
8 THE WITNESS: Karen Wood, W O O D.
9
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MS. SCOTT:
12 Q Good morning, Ms. Wood.
13 A Good morning.
14 Q Can you tell us where you live?
15 A I live in Elkmont, E L K M O N T, Alabama.
16 Q What do you do for a living, Ms. Wood?
17 A Self-employed.
18 Q Can you tell us about your business?
19 A I own a corrugated box manufacturing company.
20 Q What is the name of that company?
21 A Kare Pac
kaging, spelled with a K, K A R E.
22 Q How long have you had this business?
23 A I opened my business in October of 1990. 24 Q And how many people work in your business? 25 A 11.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5345 Wood-direct/Scott
1 Q Does that include yourself?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q Now, have you ever had any dealings with a company
4 called Who's Who Worldwide?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 THE COURT: Could you hold it just a minute,
7 Ms. Scott.
8 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
9 proceedings.)
10 THE COURT: You may proceed.
11 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, your Honor.
12 Q Did you eventually make a purchase from that company?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q Can you tell us what you purchased?
15 A I purchased a five year membership, which to my
16 understanding was to include a pl
aque, a directory, and a
17 work shop -- work shops, and networking program.
18 Q Now, approximately when were you first contacted?
19 A In July of 1993.
20 Q How were you contacted?
21 A I was contacted by letter, card and phone. I
22 received a letter at first. That included a card, a
23 postcard. I mailed the postcard in and followed it up 24 with a phone call. 25 Q Now, going back to the letter, do you remember what
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5346 Wood-direct/Scott
1 the letter said?
2 A The letter indicated that I had been nominated for
3 inclusion in the Who's Who directory. It had indicated
4 that I was confirmed, the nomination was confirmed by the
5 public affairs office on my accomplishments, that I had
6 done in the past few years. And then it listed -- it said
7 that the membership was very li
mited, and at the bottom of
8 the letter it indicated that there was no cost to be in
9 the registry.
10 Q Now I am showing you Government's Exhibit 26-F, as in
11 Frank, for Identification.
12 (Handed to the witness.)
13 Q Do you recognize that?
14 A Yes, ma'am, that's the letter I received.
15 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 26-F, as
16 in Frank.
17 THE COURT: Any objection?
18 MR. TRABULUS: I would like to see it, your
19 Honor. I don't see it in any of my pack of materials.
20 THE COURT: Very well.
21 (Document handed to Mr. Trabulus.)
22 MR. TRABULUS: No objection.
23 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 26-F, for Fox, 24 in evidence. 25 (Government's Exhibit 26-F received in evidence.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5347 Wood-direct/Scott
1 Q Now, Ms. Wood, can you tell us
the date on that
2 letter?
3 A The date on this letter is July 6th, 1993.
4 Q And could you read for us the first two paragraphs of
5 the letter.
6 THE COURT: Read slowly, please.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
8 You were recently nominated for possible
9 inclusion in the Who's Who Registry of global business
10 leaders. We are pleased to inform you that on July 1st
11 the office of public affairs confirmed your inclusion in
12 the registry of global business leaders.
13 Q Now, you mentioned there was a card enclosed with
14 this letter when you received it?
15 A Yes, ma'am.
16 Q And you sent the card back?
17 A Yes, ma'am.
18 Q I am showing you Government's Exhibit 26-D, as in
19 Daniel for Identification.
20 (Handed to the witness.)
21 Q Do you recognize that?
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q What is that? 24 A This is t
he card I filled out, completed, filled out 25 and returned.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5348 Wood-direct/Scott
1 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 26-D.
2 THE COURT: Any objection?
3 MR. TRABULUS: No.
4 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 26-D, for Dog,
5 in evidence.
6 Q If you look at the address part of that postcard, do
7 you see a postmark on there?
8 A Yes, ma'am.
9 Q What does the postmark say?
10 A July 14th.
11 Q Of which year?
12 A 1993.
13 Q Is that when you mailed it?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q And if you looked on the other side of the postcard,
16 down at the very bottom of the right-hand corner, do you
17 see a little code there?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q Can you tell us what that code says?
20 A It says global dash L F.
21 Q F as in Frank?
22 A F as in Frank.
23 Q After you mailed the postcard back to the company 24 what happened? 25 A I received a phone call from the gentleman
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5349 Wood-direct/Scott
1 representing Worldwide.
2 Q Can you tell us what -- did you have a conversation
3 with this person?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Can you tell us what you were told about the company
6 and the memberships?
7 THE COURT: Can you hold it for a moment?
8 You said you received a phone call from a
9 gentleman?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question?
13 Q Can you tell us what this gentleman told you about
14 the company and the memberships?
15 A I don't recall that he told me a whole lot about the
16 company other than it was very reputable, it was
17 nationwide, a nationwide corporation, and had a very
18 reputable reputation.
19 As far as the membership, he said it was through
20 nomination. And I specifically asked at that time if it
21 was mailing list, and he told me, no, it was not. Because
22 I do not believe in mailing lists. He told me it was
23 through nomination. 24 I asked him who it was. And he, of course, told 25 me he couldn't get me that information.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5350 Wood-direct/Scott
1 Q When you say who it was, do you mean you asked who it
2 was that nominated you?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q And he responded he couldn't tell you that?
5 A No, ma'am. I don't recall -- he didn't give me a
6 name.
7 Q What were you told about the selection process in
8 general?
9 A Just that it was through a nomination. He did not
10 indicate -- I should have questioned him more, but I did
11 not. But he did not indicate how the nomination was done,
12 or how many nominees there were, just that it was -- that
13 I was nominated.
14 Q And what, if anything, did he tell you about what
15 happened to nominations once they were made?
16 A Just that if we were -- if I was selected, then -- by
17 the public affairs office, then I would be included in the
18 registry.
19 Q Now, what, if anything, did he tell you about the
20 number of memberships that were available?
21 A I don't recall him mentioning that.
22 Q Now, you mentioned briefly some of the things that
23 you expected to receive. 24 Can you tell us what this gentleman told you that 25 you would get for your money?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5351 Wood-direct/Scott
1 A The
gentleman indicated that it would include the
2 directory, that there would be a small plaque, and the
3 most important thing to me at that time was the networking
4 and work shops that would be held in the Huntsville,
5 Nashville area, which are close to where my business is.
6 Q Now, the things -- withdrawn.
7 What did you hope to do with your membership, how
8 did you hope to use it?
9 A I was looking for the exposure in the networking
10 program, that I could learn of other vendors in this
11 networking program, other vendors, other suppliers and
12 customers.
13 Q If in fact your name had been obtained by a mailing
14 list and not nomination, would it have affected your
15 decision to purchase the membership?
16 A Yes.
17 Q What would have been the affect?
18 A I would not have purchased the membership.
19 Q Why is that?
20 A It is a pe
rsonal choice, I do not like membership
21 lists.
22 Q By membership lists what do you mean?
23 A Listings, I go to work in the morning and my fax 24 machine is down to the floor where my name got on to some 25 kind of listing. I just don't do anything with listings.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5352 Wood-direct/Scott
1 Q Now, do you remember how much you paid for this
2 membership?
3 A It was $297.
4 Q How did you pay for it?
5 A I paid for it on my MBNA Visa card.
6 Q I am showing you Government's Exhibit 26-B, as in
7 Baker for identification.
8 (Handed to the witness.)
9 Q Do you recognize that piece of paper?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q What is that?
12 A This is the invoice to Kare Packaging for a five year
13 membership billing for $297.
14 THE COURT: Is there a date on that invo
ice?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, 7/21 of '93, which is the
16 invoice date, sir.
17 Q Is that the invoice you received from Who's Who
18 Worldwide after you made the purchase?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q And does it commemorate your purchase from Who's Who
21 Worldwide?
22 A Yes, for the $297.
23 MR. WHITE: I offer Government's Exhibit 26-B, as 24 in Baker? 25 THE COURT: Any objection?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5353 Wood-direct/Scott
1 MR. TRABULUS: No.
2 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 26-B, for Baker,
3 in evidence.
4 (Government's Exhibit 26-B received in evidence.)
5 Q Did you receive a plaque?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q Did you receive a directory from the company,
8 Ms. Wood?
9 A No, I did not.
10 Q If you take a look again at
11 Government's Exhibit 26-B, there is
a blue box on the
12 lower left-hand side?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And did you have an opportunity to read that blue box
15 in the past few days?
16 A Yes, ma'am, when I looked at that box even when I got
17 it, it prevented me from sending any more money. This in
18 the blue box indicates that there was an additional charge
19 of $97 for the directory, and I was under the impression
20 from the gentleman, when I talked to the gentleman who
21 represented Who's Who that the 297 was to include that.
22 According to this when I got this invoice it did not
23 include that. And I didn't wish to continue service with 24 them. 25 Q Now, when you say it did not include that, you mean
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5354 Wood-direct/Scott
1 it did not include the directory; is that correct?
2 A Yes, ma'am, it did not include
the directory.
3 Q What did you do when you saw this language?
4 A I sent a letter saying I was not going to send them
5 another $97, that it was supposed to have been, as I have
6 understood, included in the 297 originally told to me by
7 the representative from Who's Who.
8 Q Did you receive a response to your letter?
9 A No, ma'am, I did not.
10 Q Were you contacted again by the company?
11 A No, ma'am, I was not.
12 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, Ms. Wood. I have no
13 further questions.
14 A Thank you.
15 THE COURT: Cross-examination.
16
17 CROSS-EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. TRABULUS:
19 Q Good morning, Ms. Wood. My name is Norman Trabulus.
20 A Good morning, sir.
21 Q Do you have a copy of that letter?
22 A Yes, sir, I do.
23 You mean a copy of the letter I sent back to 24 them? No, I beg your pardon. I do not. 25 Q
Now, you sent a letter saying you weren't supposed to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5355 Wood-cross/Trabulus
1 have to pay extra; is that correct?
2 A That is correct, sir.
3 Q And did you ever make any telephone calls as a follow
4 up to that?
5 A No, sir, I did not.
6 Q The telephone number of Who's Who Worldwide appears
7 on the invoice, does it not?
8 A Yes, it does, sir.
9 Q As well as a fax number?
10 A Yes, sir, it is.
11 Q Did you ever get a bill for a directory?
12 A No, sir, I did not.
13 Q Did you ever hear anything further from Who's Who
14 Worldwide?
15 A No, sir, I did not.
16 Q Did you ever get any magazines?
17 A No, sir, I did not.
18 Q Now, do you remember the name of the gentleman you
19 spoke to?
20 A No, sir, unfortunately I do not.
21 Q Does
the name Stan Joel, J O E L ring a bell?
22 A No, sir, I am sorry, it does not.
23 MR. TRABULUS: Is 26-C in evidence? 24 (Counsel confer.) 25 Q I am going to show you Government's Exhibit 26-C for
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5356 Wood-cross/Trabulus
1 Identification.
2 (Handed to the witness.)
3 Q Do you see your name on it?
4 A Yes, sir, I do.
5 Q Do you see various information listed next to
6 preprinted listings, business, major product services?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And is that consistent with the information you gave
9 to the person on the telephone?
10 A Yes, sir, it does.
11 MR. TRABULUS: I would offer 26-C in evidence at
12 this point.
13 THE COURT: Any objection?
14 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, I do have an objection.
15 THE COURT: May I see it?
16 MR. TRABULUS: May we
approach, your Honor?
17 THE COURT: Very well. Come up.
18
19 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place
20 at the sidebar.)
21 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, this is one of the sales
22 order forms we offered as a whole group into evidence.
23 If Mr. Trabulus and other -- Mr. Trabulus and the 24 other defense attorneys objected to this document and the 25 other order forms. If Mr. Trabulus wishes this to be
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5357 Wood-cross/Trabulus
1 moved in evidence, we will insist to move in the other
2 sales forms as well that we offered at the time.
3 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, what happened with
4 regard to certain of the sales forms is that they were
5 introduced on a one by one basis by asking questions very
6 much similar to the ones I asked the witness. We now have
7 a witness here who
has linked it along with the testimony
8 that was previously adduced concerning this and now there
9 is a foundation for its submission.
10 MS. SCOTT: There was already a foundation. We
11 established through the custodian that they were business
12 records of the company.
13 THE COURT: If they are business records and they
14 are relevant, why aren't they admissible? You say because
15 the defense objected to you putting in business records?
16 MS. SCOTT: They are not in evidence because the
17 defense objected to them.
18 THE COURT: What does it have to do with whether
19 or not this is admissible at this point right now?
20 MR. WHITE: Your Honor --
21 THE COURT: Unless you have a stipulation that
22 says by counsel on the record, that says they will agree
23 not to put any of these in evidence, that's another 24 matter. But I don't understand. 25
MR. WHITE: Your Honor, we wanted to point out
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5358 Wood-cross/Trabulus
1 the inconsistency.
2 The business record foundation has been laid.
3 But the defense objected to putting in any of them. Now
4 they selectively want to put in the ones they want. We
5 just wanted to point that out. If you want, we will make
6 a list of all the other ones that should be in and we will
7 offer those. But if they are standing here now and saying
8 all those order forms are business records and should be
9 put in, fine, we will withdraw our objection.
10 THE COURT: I don't understand. If it is a
11 business record and relevant it is admissible, right?
12 That's all I am interested in right now.
13 If you have other business records which are
14 order forms and relevant and they are business records,
15
they are also going in evidence if you wish. I am not
16 privy to this little side agreement or lack of agreement
17 that you have.
18 MR. WHITE: It wasn't an agreement, your Honor.
19 It was a couple of weeks ago they objected to it.
20 THE COURT: You mean I sustained an objection to
21 a business record going in evidence?
22 MS. SCOTT: Yes, your Honor you did.
23 THE COURT: Which one did I sustain? 24 MS. SCOTT: It was a whole list I read into the 25 record.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5359 Wood-cross/Trabulus
1 THE COURT: There must have been a different
2 reason for that. Maybe you didn't put a foundation in on
3 it.
4 MS. SCOTT: I believe your Honor reserved
5 foundation on it.
6 THE COURT: Do you deny it is a business record?
7 MR. WHITE: No.
8 MS. SCOTT: No.
9 MR. WHITE: W
e don't have to take up the jury's
10 time with this.
11 MR. JENKS: Why don't you stipulate that Stan
12 Joel is not in the courtroom? That's why he is offering
13 it.
14 MR. WHITE: We don't have to waste any more time.
15 THE COURT: Excuse me.
16 I do not remember ever in my judicial career ever
17 not admitting a qualified foundation made business record
18 that was relevant. Now why I picked to do it in this
19 case, I don't know. I may have been out of my head at the
20 time. Maybe I was delirious or something. I don't
21 remember that at all. But I do know that this is that
22 business record and it is going into evidence.
23 MR. WHITE: Okay. 24 We will revisit the issue of a similar type 25 record later.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5360 Wood-cross/Trabulus
1 THE COURT: Surely.
2 MS.
SCOTT: We will then withdraw the objection.
3 Thank you.
4
5 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes
6 place in open court.)
7 MS. SCOTT: The government withdraws the
8 objection.
9 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 26-C, the order
10 form, in evidence. We will leave it that way.
11 (Government's Exhibit 26-C received in evidence.)
12 MR. TRABULUS: Does your Honor have it?
13 THE COURT: Yes, I do.
14 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: What is the date on that,
16 Mr. Trabulus.
17 MR. TRABULUS: 7/19/93.
18 Q Ms. Wood, would you read the name that appears next
19 to the typewritten heading, account executive number one?
20 A Stan Joel.
21 THE COURT: Is that J O E L?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 MR. TRABULUS: Yes. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 Q Below that account, executive number 2, there is a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5361 Wood-cross/Trabulus
1 blank; is that correct, madam?
2 A Yes. Yes, sir.
3 Q Now, madam, I think you indicated that it came a --
4 it made a difference to you if your name came from a
5 mailing list; is that correct?
6 A Yes, sir, that's correct.
7 Q As you sit there today, you don't know one way or
8 another whether your name came from a mailing list, do
9 you?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q And I think you indicated that the first you heard
12 from Who's Who Worldwide was by mail; is that correct? Is
13 that your testimony?
14 A Yes, sir, by letter.
15 Q Now, there was a time that you received a
16 questionnaire from the Postal Service back in June of
17 1995?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And I am going to show you that, 3500-KLW-1.
20 (Handed to the witness
.)
21 Q Now, you wrote a bunch of answers, handwritten
22 material in response to the questions; is that correct?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And as to the first two questions you left them 25 blank; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5362 Wood-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, sir, I did.
2 Q And the second question is: How were you contacted,
3 i.e., a solicitation letter, a telephone call, or both; is
4 that correct?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Was that because of the time that you wrote this out,
7 you couldn't remember one way or another exactly how you
8 were first contacted?
9 A At the time I filled out the questionnaire, sir, I
10 did not have the letter in front of me. It was in a box
11 of files, things filed away from the previous year, 1993.
12 At the time I filled out the questionnaire I didn't have
13 in my possession the letter to know that the letter came
14 first, in which would follow up with the dates on the
15 invoices and everything that I was contacted by letter.
16 There was a card, and it was included.
17 Q Is there anything on the letter indicating it came
18 before the telephone call?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Now, you indicated you were not told that the company
21 used mailing lists as a source of prospective members; is
22 that correct?
23 A They told me they did not use mailing lists. 24 Q You also indicated that you were told that the 25 company did not use mailing lists; is that correct? In
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5363 Wood-cross/Trabulus
1 the questionnaire?
2 A Correct.
3 Q Do you recall in the questionnaire being asked as
4 follows: If you were told anything about how the com
pany
5 obtained your name, how did this affect your decision to
6 purchase a directory/membership? Do you recall that?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And do you recall putting down at that point in time,
9 I don't recall?
10 A Correct.
11 Q So, in 1995 -- in July -- in June of 1995 when you
12 filled it out, is it fair to say at that point in time you
13 didn't recall if it made any difference to you at all if
14 you were told you were nominated by another member as
15 opposed to having come from a mailing list?
16 A It did, because in previous questions it asked if I
17 was told about a mailing list.
18 Q I am not asking you whether or not you recall what
19 you were told. I am asking you if tote you filled out the
20 questionnaire you didn't recall if it made any difference
21 to you?
22 A Yes, it would have made a difference.
23 Q But you wrote down i
n response to a question of 24 whether it affected your decision to purchase, you wrote 25 down, I don't recall; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5364 Wood-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes.
2 Q Now, you never actually received the directory, I
3 gather?
4 A No, sir, I did not.
5 Q And you don't know what is in it?
6 A No, sir, I do not.
7 Q Anybody ever told you as to whether your name is in
8 the directory?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q I am going to tell you, or I will show you. I am
11 going to show you Defendant's Exhibit Q.
12 Take a look at page 951; right where my finger is
13 pointed.
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Is that for you, madam?
16 A Yes, sir, it is.
17 Q It has the information about your company?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And --
20 A Not the way they told me it
would be, no sir.
21 Q And the information you gave to them over the
22 telephone in speaking to them?
23 A Yes, sir, that's correct. 24 Q Ms. Wood, I take it you don't know at this point what 25 other names would have been in the directory that might
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5365 Wood-cross/Trabulus
1 have been of assistance to you in your reasons?
2 A No, sir, I don't.
3 Q In the letter you wrote, which you don't have a copy
4 of, the one that you complained about the initial amount
5 that you would have to pay --
6 A Yes.
7 Q In that letter, is it fair to say that you basically
8 just asked not to pay the additional amount, that you
9 should get the directory for nothing additional more?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q You did not request a refund at that point?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q After that y
ou had no additional correspondence or
14 contact with the company?
15 A No, sir.
16 MR. TRABULUS: That's all I have.
17 THE COURT: Anything else?
18 MR. NELSON: Judge, I have a few questions.
19
20 CROSS-EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. NELSON:
22 Q Good morning, Ms. Wood.
23 A Good morning. 24 Q It is still morning, yes. 25 Do you recall after you received the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5366 Wood-cross/Nelson
1 questionnaire from the government, being contacted by
2 telephone by a government agent, and having an interview
3 over the telephone?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And that was in approximately August of 1996?
6 A It could have been.
7 Q And I believe you testified previously that you had
8 been told that you were nominated for inclusion in the
9 registry; is that correct?
10 A By a Who's Who representative, yes.
11 Q And I believe you told the government, based upon
12 questioning by Ms. Scott, that if you came from a mailing
13 list, that you would not wish to be included; is that
14 correct?
15 A That is correct.
16 Q Do you recall being asked this question over the
17 telephone on August 16th, 1996:
18 Question: If you were told that they were
19 nominated and said on an original questionnaire that this
20 affected their decision to purchase membership, question
21 A, would it have affected your decision to purchase if
22 your name had really been obtained from a mailing list?
23 And do you recall having given this answer: No, 24 not if the same results had been gotten; needed the name 25 out there on the street at the time. I was in business
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5367
Wood-cross/Nelson
1 one year at that time.
2 Do you recall having given that answer during the
3 course of your telephone interview with a postal inspector
4 on August 16th, 1996?
5 A I don't recall it word for word, no, sir.
6 Q Now, do you recall during the course of the
7 questionnaire that you filled out, a question 25, which
8 was a question, what were the primary reasons for your
9 decision to purchase a directory or become a member; do
10 you remember that question?
11 A Yes, sir, I do.
12 Q Do you recall giving the answer, to become known in
13 the business world?
14 A Exposure, yes, sir.
15 Q Would I be correct that at the time you first applied
16 for membership in Who's Who Worldwide, your primary
17 interest was the networking opportunities that it might
18 offer you?
19 A Yes, sir, that's correct.
20 Q Now, I belie
ve you indicated that when you applied
21 for Who's Who Worldwide, you were -- you paid for it by
22 your MBNA Visa card; is that correct?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And how did you acquire that Visa card? 25 A I don't recall. I had it for several years.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5368 Wood-cross/Nelson
1 Q Do you recall if it was as a result of a mailing that
2 you received from MBNA, or some other professional
3 organization, offering you the MBNA Visa card?
4 A It was probably through Ducks Unlimited
5 Organization. I am a lifetime sponsor of Ducks
6 Unlimited. If I get something from them I will
7 participate.
8 Q I am not familiar with what Ducks Unlimited is.
9 Would you please tell us?
10 A It is an organization which is a conservation for the
11 wetlands, for wildlife.
12 Q And they send out pub
lications to members?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you receive publications from Ducks Unlimited by
15 being a member?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And are you aware of the fact -- withdrawn.
18 I believe you indicated that when you received
19 the invoice which indicated you would have to pay an
20 additional sum of money, you at that point became angered
21 and made a determination that you would not pay the
22 additional sum of money, and would not continue on with
23 Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct? 24 A Correct, sir. 25 Q Now, since you had paid by your Visa card, did you --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5369 Wood-cross/Nelson
1 I believe you testified you contacted the companies; is
2 that right?
3 A Correct, sir.
4 Q And you complained to the companies; is that right?
5 A Yes, sir, correct.
6 Q Did you at any time contact Visa in order to obtain a
7 refund from Visa?
8 A No, sir, I did not.
9 Q Are you aware that when you make a charge by credit
10 card, you can within a 60 day period of time contact in a
11 mail order type of purchase the credit card company in
12 order to obtain a refund?
13 A I did not know that at the time. I just recently
14 learned that that can be done.
15 Q Are you aware if a lot of people make those kind of
16 complaints, then the credit card company goes to the
17 company that uses it, like Visa, Master Card, American
18 Express, and says, we will not continue any longer with
19 you, because too many people are making complaints about
20 your product; are you aware of that?
21 A Understandable, yes.
22 Q And I believe you indicated that while you didn't do
23 that, you decided you weren't going to continue any
24 longer; is that right? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5370 Wood-cross/Nelson
1 Q And now, had you continued, and I believe
2 Mr. Trabulus just showed you the registry which included
3 your name; is that right?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And were you aware that another membership benefit
6 that was provided was a magazine which came out four times
7 a year called Tribute Magazine?
8 A I don't recall that, sir.
9 Q I would like to show you magazines that were in fact
10 distributed to the members. For the record I will show
11 Exhibits C, D and G at this time.
12 (Handed to the witness.)
13 Q You have never seen these magazines; is that correct?
14 A I don't recall ever seeing this.
15 Q That's because you cancelled your membership as soon
16 as you received the invoice or partially so; is
that
17 correct?
18 A Yes, sir, yes, sir.
19 Q And I believe one of the things you indicated would
20 be very important in doing was being able to network so
21 you would get your name out there and see about other
22 people in the business world; is that right?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q And I would like you to look through the magazine and 25 specifically I am directing your attention for the record,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5371 Wood-cross/Nelson
1 because we have to have all this reported here, this is
2 volume 4 from 1994.
3 Am I correct -- you can peruse it, we are going
4 one page at a time -- that there are various different
5 member profiles of people in the business world?
6 A That's evident here in the book.
7 Q Now, one of the other things I would like to ask you
8 is that is the Wh
o's Who Worldwide similar to Ducks
9 Unlimited offered through MBNA, while that was a Visa, but
10 with a Master Card with the Who's Who Executive Club
11 embossation on it; do you see that?
12 A Yes, sir, I see it.
13 Q Would I be fair in stating that to some extent
14 because you were angered by the fact that because you were
15 going to be billed an additional sum of money, you didn't
16 have the opportunity to acquire these various different
17 publications because you didn't spend the additional $97;
18 is that right?
19 A That's true.
20 Q And had you paid the additional $97, you would have
21 received the registry including the name that was shown to
22 you; is that right?
23 A Possibly. 24 Q And you might well have been receiving four times a 25 year the Tribute Magazine which includes various different
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM O
FFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5372 Wood-cross/Nelson
1 articles about members; is that correct?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q Now, were you aware of the fact that the way that
4 those articles get into the Tribute Magazine is because
5 there was a public affairs office in the company, and that
6 people could call in and offer themselves as prospective
7 candidates to have a profile done upon them; did you know
8 that?
9 A No.
10 Q And were you aware of the fact that the public
11 affairs office for an additional fee would put out a
12 profile for you that you could circulate in your local
13 paper, or you could disseminate in your geographical area,
14 were you aware of that?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q And not having paid the additional $97, you weren't
17 in a position to find out what those benefits were; is
18 that correct?
19 A That's tru
e.
20 Q In a sense, you really didn't give the company the
21 chance; isn't that right?
22 A It should have been included in the $297. That's
23 what I was under the assumption of. 24 Q But it doesn't say that on the invoice, does it? 25 A No, sir, it sure doesn't.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5373 Wood-cross/Nelson
1 Q And you didn't ask Visa to get the money back for you
2 at the time?
3 A No, sir, I didn't know that at the time.
4 MR. NELSON: No further questions.
5 MR. JENKS: One or two, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Sure.
7
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. JENKS:
10 Q Is it fair, Ms. Wood, you got the invoice explaining
11 the $97 billing right after you became a member; is that
12 fair?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And let me ask you this: The primary reason you
15 really jo
ined was exposure?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And to get your name out there as a female business
18 owner; is that right?
19 A That is correct.
20 Q And is it also fair to say that you were hoping to
21 network with other female business executives?
22 A Not necessarily female executives.
23 Q Well, with other business owners as yourself? 24 A Correct. 25 Q And if your name came from a selective mailing list
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5374 Wood-cross/Jenks
1 of female presidents or owners of corporations, and you
2 were told that, would you have joined and become a member?
3 A No, no, sir, I wouldn't have.
4 Q What if you were told that your name was selected
5 from a highly selective mailing list of business owners.
6 Since you wanted exposure would you have joined under
7 those circumstances?
8 A
No, sir.
9 Q Have you joined other organizations from mailings you
10 have got?
11 A Not mailings.
12 Q Have you purchased anything from a mail order
13 catalogue in the mail, such as LL Bean?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q Nothing at all?
16 A No, sir.
17 MR. SCHOER: I have one question.
18
19 CROSS-EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. SCHOER:
21 Q Ducks Unlimited, ma'am, how did you come to join that
22 organization?
23 A My husband had been a member of that organization for 24 many years. 25 Q And do you know how your husband came to be a member
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5375 Wood-cross/Schoer
1 of that organization?
2 A No, I didn't know him then.
3 Q Do you know whether or not he became a member of that
4 organization through a mailing?
5 A I have no idea. I didn't know h
im at the time.
6 Q Do you know whether or not Ducks Unlimited sends
7 mailings to solicit people to join?
8 A They may.
9 MR. SCHOER: I have nothing else.
10
11 CROSS-EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. DUNN:
13 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Wood.
14 A Good afternoon.
15 Q My name is Thomas Dunn.
16 Ms. Wood, you testified that you have a fax
17 machine at work, and you walk in sometimes and there are
18 numerous fax from people soliciting you; is that correct?
19 A Yes, sir, correct.
20 Q The first contact you had with Who's Who Worldwide
21 was through the mail; is that correct?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q You didn't get any fax from them soliciting you; is 24 that correct? 25 A No, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5376 Wood-cross/Dunn
1 Q And how many organizations do you belong to?
2 A The Chamber of Commerce, Ducks Unlimited.
3 Q No other organization? No women's organizations?
4 A No, sir, I do not.
5 Q No business women's organizations?
6 A No, sir, I do not.
7 Q You are in the corrugated box business; is that
8 correct?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q How do you get your customers?
11 A Through other customers or my present customers. I
12 don't have a salesman. It is by word of mouth. We don't
13 advertise.
14 Q You don't have a catalogue of your products?
15 A No, sir, I do not.
16 Q How long have you been in business?
17 A Since 1990.
18 Q Do you know that thousands and thousands of companies
19 in this company use mailing lists; do you know that?
20 A Probably.
21 Q The government discussed mailing lists with you, did
22 they not?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And in fact, you spoke with Ms. Scott or M
r. White 25 today before you came into the courtroom?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5377 Wood-cross/Dunn
1 A No.
2 Q When was the last time before you came into the
3 courtroom you spoke with them?
4 A Last evening.
5 Q And did you discuss your testimony with them today?
6 A Just a little bit, yes, sir.
7 Q And they talked about the reason you joined the
8 organization; is that correct?
9 A Exposure, like I had put on my form, yes, sir.
10 Q Is the term "mailing list" came up; is that correct?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q You received a plaque; is that correct?
13 A Yes, sir, I did.
14 Q You displayed that plaque?
15 A Yes, sir, I did.
16 Q You were proud to be in an organization called Who's
17 Who when you first learned about that; is that correct?
18 A I thought so, yes.
19 Q We
ll, you did, didn't you?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q You were pleased?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q When you were contacted? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And you thought it would be real good for your
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5378 Wood-cross/Dunn
1 business; is that right?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q You put up a plaque on your wall and displayed it?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q People saw that plaque?
6 A Some.
7 Q Where did you display it in your home or your place
8 of business?
9 A In my office.
10 Q Do you have customers you try to sell things to come
11 into your place of business?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q They come and they talk to you about your product?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q And there were times when that plaque was up on the
16 wall and these people came and talked to you about your
17 pla
ce of business; is that right?
18 A They don't come into my office.
19 Q Listen to the question.
20 Never did you have a person wanting to buy your
21 product come into your office, never in your life?
22 A Yes, sir, sometimes.
23 Q There were times when people come into your office in 24 the past concerning your product; is that right? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5379 Wood-cross/Dunn
1 MR. DUNN: I have no further questions, your
2 Honor.
3 THE COURT: Anything else?
4 MS. SCOTT: I have redirect, your Honor. But may
5 I have a moment?
6 THE COURT: Sure.
7 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
8 proceedings.)
9
10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MS. SCOTT:
12 Q Ms. Wood, do you remember being asked a question on
13 cross-examination as to whe
ther you knew whether your name
14 had been taken from a mailing list?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And do you remember testifying that you didn't know
17 that?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q I am showing you Government's Exhibit 188, which is
20 in evidence.
21 I ask you to compare it to
22 Government's Exhibit 26-F, as in Frank, which is also in
23 evidence, and if you take a moment to compare those two 24 documents and compare them word for word. 25 (Handed to the witness.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5380 Wood-redirect/Scott
1 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
2 proceedings.)
3 A It is the same, dated the same --
4 Q Are they identical except for the addresses to whom
5 the letters are addressed?
6 A That and the salutation, yes.
7 Q If you look at Government's Exhibit 188, do y
ou see
8 some handwriting at the top?
9 A Yes, I do.
10 Q And can you tell us what that handwriting says?
11 A At the left on the top it looks like F A L A,
12 life-styles. And over to the right of Who's Who it has a
13 global L F and some numbers.
14 Q The term global L F, is that the same term you see in
15 the right-hand corner of Government's Exhibit 26-D, as in