3 (The following takes place in the absence of the
4 jury.)
5 THE COURT: I remind the male persons present not
6 to use the men's bathroom on this floor. It is a while
7 since I reminded you. It is right across from the jury
8 room. You are not to use it. Use the bathroom upstairs.
9 And with that friendly greeting I say good
10 morning.
11 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
12 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
13 courtroom.)
14 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.
15 Please be seated.
16 Again my compliments, you are getting better as
17 we go along. If we keep this trial going from to August
18 and September, you will be here before I am. You will
19 never see the sunlight, either at morning or at night.
20 You may proceed.
21 MS. SCOTT: The government calls Thomas Skonie.
22 THE CLERK: Please rise and raise your right
23 hand. 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5622
1 T H O M A S R. S K O N I E ,
2 called as a witness, having been first
3 duly sworn, was examined and testified
4 as follows:
5
6 THE CLERK: Thank you. Please be seated.
7 Please state a
nd spell your full name for the
8 record.
9 THE WITNESS: My name is Thomas R. Skonie,
10 S K O N I E.
11
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION
13 BY MS. SCOTT:
14 Q Good morning, Mr. Skonie.
15 A Good morning.
16 Q Can you tell us where you live?
17 A Naperville, Illinois.
18 Q What do you do for a living in Illinois?
19 A I am a manufactures representative in the housewares
20 electronics, business.
21 Q What is the name of the company you work for?
22 A The name of the company is Walter Nye, N Y E, &
23 Company, Inc. 24 Q And what is your position with Walter Nye? 25 A President of the company.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5623 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 Q Can you describe for us briefly what your
2 responsibilities are?
3 A We represent manufacturers in the housewares and
4 electronics business, we are their contact sales agents,
5 most of these companies do not use a sales force, they use
6 us as an exclusive agent to represent people in their
7 territory, Wallgreens, Sears, Wards, and we are
8 compensated with a commission rate for doing that.
9 Q How long have you been the president of Walter Nye?
10 A I have been the president for 15 years.
11 Q Now, have you ever had any dealings with a company
12 called Who's Who Worldwide?
13 A Yes, I have.
14 Q Did you eventually make a purchase from that company?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q What did you buy?
17 A I was nominated to be a member in Who's Who Worldwide
18 and sent in an application fee, for which I received back
19 a plaque.
20 That's pretty much what I got.
21 Q Going back to your first contact, how were you first
22 contacted by the company?
23 A I receive
d a letter or solicitation in the mail 24 saying I had been nominated to be in Who's Who Worldwide. 25 And there was a short application or stub to send back, if
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5624 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 I was interested, which I completed. I sent back, and I
2 was at a later date, shortly after contacted by their
3 representative on the telephone.
4 Q Now, going back to the letter, do you remember
5 approximately when that arrived?
6 A It is about five years ago, so it would be 1994, in
7 that area.
8 Q I will show you Government's Exhibit 67-D, as in
9 Daniel, for Identification.
10 Do you recognize that?
11 (Handed to the witness.)
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q What is that?
14 A That's the short response that I returned to them
15 with my signature on it saying that I was interested, or
16 would like to be included, or would like some more
17 information. It was a no obligation thing.
18 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 67-D.
19 THE COURT: Any objection?
20 MR. TRABULUS: No.
21 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 67-D, for Dog,
22 in evidence.
23 Q Now, Mr. Skonie, if you take a look at the lower 24 right-hand corner of that postcard, do you see a code 25 there in blue letters?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5625 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 A Yes, I do.
2 Q Can you tell us what that code says?
3 A GA group FM.
4 Q F as in Frank, M as in Michael?
5 A That's right.
6 Q If you turn the postcard over can you read us the
7 postmark on the back?
8 A It is post marked --
9 THE COURT: We don't know these names, so you
10 have to spell them when you get to them.
11 A Elk, E L K, Grove, G R O V E, village, Illinois,
12 September 10th, 1993.
13 Q Now, you mentioned that you received a telephone call
14 from the company?
15 A That's correct. After I filled this out, a person
16 from Who's Who called me up, and we spoke about becoming a
17 member.
18 Q Do you remember if this person was a man or a woman?
19 A A woman.
20 Q And can you tell us what this woman told you about
21 the company and the memberships?
22 A She told me that I had been nominated to be in Who's
23 Who. I asked her whom I had been nominated by. 24 She told me that the nomination was confidential, 25 and she could only tell me that I had in fact been
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5626 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 nominated.
2 She said it was a good organization, exclusive,
3 you know, very nice to
be in, prestigious. Would I like
4 to join?
5 And I said, yes.
6 Q What, if anything, did she say to you about how
7 members in general were selected?
8 A They were nominated by other people.
9 Q What were you told you would get for your money if
10 you purchased a membership?
11 A I was to get a plaque. And I was to get membership
12 in this group. The membership was the key thing for me.
13 Q Now, of all the things that were said to you about
14 this membership, what was the most important thing that
15 led you to make a purchase?
16 A Well, in the business I am in, which is the sales
17 business, it is largely a business, or a great part of it
18 is a business of contacts. The way we grow our business
19 is by meeting new people who may be in positions to, or be
20 affiliated with companies which would allow us to
21 represent them or sell their
goods for them. It is an
22 important part of the business. Most of the new lines or
23 manufacturers are ones we acquire from networking from 24 people we know, or know us, or who we have represented or 25 whom we had business relationships with.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5627 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 So, first of all, to be nominated, I assumed that
2 because I had represented several large companies at that
3 time, very large companies, and had good relationships
4 with the presidents of those companies at that time, it
5 was possible one of them had nominated. She would not
6 tell me who nominated me. But my assumption was that one
7 of them nominated me.
8 It would be bad for my business to have someone
9 like that nominate me and then for me to refuse it, and
10 then to assume I wasn't interested. That would have been
11 an endorsement.
12 The other thing was it would be a forum for me to
13 meet and grow new business. Perhaps I could be affiliated
14 with a company that we could represent and sell products
15 for them. It is an extremely large part of our business,
16 that's networking process.
17 Q Now, how, if at all, did your belief that you had
18 been nominated relate to your perception that this was a
19 networking tool that you could use?
20 A Well, she -- I specifically asked her how I had been
21 selected to be in this. She said I was nominated. It was
22 my assumption that I was nominated by someone I knew and
23 it would be a good thing for me. 24 It was also, she implied as part of this thing 25 you would get to network with people, or meet other
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5628 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 people
. And I assume that that would be very good for my
2 business, too. It seemed at the time that it would be a
3 positive thing.
4 MR. SCHOER: Objection, Judge, I don't believe
5 that that answer is responsive to the question.
6 THE COURT: First of all, please do not make any
7 statements except objection.
8 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
9 THE COURT: Now, I would have asked you what the
10 ground of the objection is, so no harm was done.
11 Your objection is that it is not responsive?
12 MR. SCHOER: Not responsive to the question that
13 was asked.
14 THE COURT: No. You are overruled.
15 Motion denied.
16 Q Now, if in fact your name had been obtained not by
17 nomination, but from a mailing list, would it have
18 affected your decision to make the purchase?
19 A I would not have purchased.
20 Q Why is that?
21 A Mailing lists by their very n
ature are general. I
22 have sold consumer products to direct response companies
23 for 25 years. I am familiar with the mailing list 24 process. And mailing lists are just exactly what the word 25 implies. It is a list of the people sent out, and it is a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5629 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 numbers game. And the more you send out hopefully the
2 more responses you would get. And I would have not
3 partaken in something like that.
4 Q Now, the membership you purchased, do you remember
5 how much you paid for it?
6 A It was very expensive. It was in the high 200 dollar
7 range, 280, 290. It was expensive.
8 Q How did you pay for it?
9 A A credit card.
10 Q How did you give your credit card information to the
11 company?
12 A Over the telephone.
13 Q I will show you Government Exhi
bit 67-B as in Baker
14 for Identification.
15 Do you recognize that?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q What is it?
18 A The receipt or invoice from my Who's Who
19 application.
20 MS. SCOTT: I offer 67-B, as in Baker.
21 THE COURT: Any objection?
22 MR. TRABULUS: No.
23 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 67-B, as in 24 Baker, in evidence. 25 (Government's Exhibit 67-B received in evidence.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5630 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 Q Does that invoice show the terms of your purchase?
2 A Yes, it does.
3 Q How much money does it show you paid?
4 A $297.
5 Q Can you tell us the date on the invoice?
6 A 9/21/93.
7 Q September 21st, 1993?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Mr. Skonie, did you receive a plaque?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q Did you receive a directory from th
e company?
12 A No, I did not.
13 Q Did you receive any communications from the company
14 regarding the directory?
15 A Shortly after I received the plaque the company
16 called me back, and asked me if I wanted to purchase a
17 directory. And I believe they also had computer version,
18 a CD-ROM version. At which time I said, no.
19 I became kind of agitated, because I assumed that
20 when I joined it I would know who the other members were.
21 And it struck me that the process was becoming one where
22 it was just a contest to continually sell me something.
23 Q So, did you agree to purchase the directory? 24 A No, I didn't purchase the directory. At that time I 25 expressed my agitation with the person who called me on
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5631 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 the phone and asked let me not to call
me any more. I
2 didn't think it was a very good deal.
3 Q Did you see any letters from the company after that?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 We received -- I receive all the mail for
6 Mr. Nye, the founder of our company, Walter Nye. And
7 sometimes subsequent to that Mr. Nye received a letter in
8 the mail virtually identical to the letter I received.
9 And I responded for Mr. Nye that he was not interested
10 because he had been dead for ten years. And I also
11 responded that they should clean up their mailing list,
12 and that he obviously having been deceased that long, was
13 not a candidate for Who's Who.
14 Q Now, this letter you received from -- you say it was
15 identical to the letter you received?
16 A It was a different heading. One was worldwide. One
17 was Sterling. But it was the same type of letter. And I
18 was so agitated from the previous experience
with the
19 company, that when I saw this I wrote them a letter saying
20 this was not a very good thing to do.
21 Q Now, the second letter, the letter addressed to
22 Walter Nye, was that on Sterling Who's Who letterhead?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And the original purchase you made was from Who's Who 25 Worldwide?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5632 Skonie-direct/Scott
1 A Yes.
2 Q And how is it you knew that the second letter was
3 connected with -- withdrawn.
4 A It was identical in any way, every way with the
5 letter I had received.
6 Q Did you receive anything else from either Sterling
7 Who's Who or Who's Who Worldwide after that?
8 A No.
9 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Skonie. No further
10 questions.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
12 THE COURT: Cross-examination.
13 MR. TRABULU
S: Thank you.
14
15 CROSS-EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. TRABULUS:
17 Q Good morning, Mr. Skonie. My name is Norman
18 Trabulus, and I represent the gentleman seated next to
19 me.
20 A Good morning.
21 Q Mr. Skonie, I believe you indicated you became
22 agitated at a certain point; is that correct?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q And that was when you were contacted to pay 25 additional money for the directory; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5633 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And before that you had received the plaque; is that
3 correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And at that point you were not agitated were you?
6 A I was not agitated, but I felt a little sheepish
7 about buying myself a plaque.
8 Q And that was -- at that point in time when you felt a
9 lit
tle sheepish, you had learned nothing about the company
10 or its product other than what you had been told over the
11 phone at that point, correct?
12 A I had learned that I had been nominated to be a
13 member.
14 Q What I meant is there was nothing knew you had
15 learned between the time you agreed to make the purchase
16 and the time you became sheepish; is that correct?
17 A I had not been contacted in that time period, no.
18 Q Is it correct to say that you felt sheepish on your
19 own, nothing happened to make you feel sheepish from the
20 company, it was a change in your own feelings; is that
21 right?
22 A That's true.
23 Q When you got the plaque, did you hang it up? 24 A No. 25 Q The plaque was basically the way it was described to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5634 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 you on the phone, was it not?
2 A It was a plaque.
3 Q So, you feeling sheepish was basically a way you
4 yourself felt after feeling that way after making the
5 order; is that correct?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q You did not ask for a refund, did you?
8 A No.
9 Q And do you know what would have happened had you
10 asked for a refund?
11 A No, I don't.
12 Q You mentioned, sir, that you yourself are in the
13 sales business; is that correct?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q And your company is paid by commission?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And are your individual salesmen paid by commission?
18 A Some are and some aren't.
19 Q Certainly there is nothing improper or inherently
20 fraudulent by paying salespeople by commission?
21 A Of course not.
22 Q Some people have a quota to make in order to keep
23 their job? 24 A No
. 25 Q Now, I think you told us the woman to whom you spoke,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5635 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 whose name you don't recall, told you you had been
2 nominated; is that correct?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q And you say you assumed that it might have been by
5 one of the other -- one of the people with whom you had a
6 business relationship; is that correct?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q That was your assumption; is that correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q It is not something she told you; is that correct?
11 A No.
12 Q It is correct, correct? When you said no, it is
13 ambiguous, my question's fault?
14 THE COURT: If you keep going rapidly and he does
15 not catch up to you, the "no" would not fit into the right
16 question.
17 A I asked her who nominated me. She couldn't tell me.
18 THE COURT: She didn't tell you it was a business
19 associate or anything like that?
20 THE WITNESS: No, she did not.
21 Q Mr. Skonie, did she tell you yourself, you yourself
22 upon becoming a member would receive the right, or
23 opportunity to nominate people like yourself? Do you 24 recall that? 25 A I don't recall that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5636 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Do you recall if she told you something to the effect
2 that you would be able to nominate up to two or three
3 people a way through a nomination ballot?
4 A I don't recall that.
5 Q Do you recall whether she told you that if you did
6 something like that it would -- you have to be careful
7 because you couldn't be sure that the person you nominated
8 would actually become a member?
9 A I don't recall that.
10 Q Did she tell you or did you merely assume that if you
11 became a member, the person who nominated you or the
12 people who nominated you would find out?
13 A I assumed that.
14 Q Now, is it also assumed that when you joined the
15 membership, you would learn who the other members were?
16 That was an assumption on your part?
17 A It is an assumption. To me it was a reasonable
18 assumption.
19 Q Certainly, if one purchased the directory -- in the
20 conversation with this lady who spoke to you, did she
21 discuss with you the purchase of the directory?
22 A After I joined.
23 Q Well, at the time that you joined, did you understand 24 that the $290 -- I am sorry, is that what it was, the $290 25 you were paying included the directory?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5637 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 A No. Bu
t I never joined anything where I didn't know
2 who the other members were. I mean, as part of the
3 membership.
4 Q You understood the $290 that was due at that point
5 did not include the directory; is that correct?
6 A I didn't know whether it included or didn't include
7 it. I was never told either way.
8 Q Well, do you recall that she told you that there
9 would be an additional charge when the directory was ready
10 to be shipped?
11 A No, I don't recall her saying that. No, she didn't.
12 Q When you received the invoice, 67-B, do you have that
13 before you, sir?
14 A Uh-huh.
15 Q Did you notice the blue portion on it which talked
16 about the additional payment?
17 A No. I didn't notice it.
18 Q Now, in terms of what she described the organization
19 as being, you certainly saw yourself as being a suitable
20 person as being included
in the membership, in terms of
21 where you are in your position with the company and its
22 business?
23 A I wouldn't have joined if I didn't. 24 Q And you perceived it -- withdrawn. 25 Do you know whether or not you were actually
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5638 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 included in the directory, did anybody ever tell you that?
2 A No one has ever told me.
3 One of them is Defendant's Exhibit Q. And I am
4 going to direct you to page 820, and I will point to
5 something.
6 Do you see there an entry for yourself?
7 (Handed to the witness.)
8 A Yes, I do.
9 Q And also Defendant's Exhibit P at page 737, also an
10 entry for yourself.
11 Do you see it?
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q Would you read over those entries and see if they are
14 correct?
15 A This one?
16 Q Either one.
17 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
18 proceedings.)
19 A It's correct.
20 Q You were spoken to concerning a CD-ROM?
21 A It's correct.
22 Q In your business, I assume you are familiar with
23 CD-ROMs, are you not? 24 A Absolutely. 25 Q And you are aware that a CD-ROM can be utilized to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5639 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 access information on it by any one of a whole different
2 variety of parameters?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q Now, what are the different type of businesses that
5 you would have liked to have networked with had you
6 utilized what was being told to you?
7 A People who manufacture in the electronics and
8 housewares businesses.
9 Q Okay.
10 I will show you my laptop computer which has
11 Defendant
's Exhibit S in it. It has something on the
12 screen. Next to, full text search, it has housewares.
13 There is a number there, number 43.
14 Are you familiar with this type of screen set up?
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q Yes?
17 A Yes, I am.
18 Q Okay.
19 You see a bunch of names here?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And I will just pick one at random. It says,
22 Melitta, M E L I T T A, U.S.A.
23 A It is Melitta. 24 Q You are familiar with the company? 25 A Sure am.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5640 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Is that a company you possibly wanted to network
2 with?
3 A It could be.
4 Q The person listed there is a forecast analysis,
5 analyst for the company; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Do you see any there listing you wish for me to pull
8 up?
9 A No.
I think I understand the concept that you are
10 dealing with.
11 Q Okay.
12 Here is one for Rick Burman, B U R M A N,
13 marketing manager of Regent Sheffield, S H E F F I E L D,
14 a manufacturer of cutlery and housewares.
15 Have you heard of that company?
16 A Yes, I have.
17 Q Is that somebody you conceivably would want to
18 network with?
19 A Yes, it is.
20 Q Now, when you decided not to get the CD-ROM or the
21 directory, you did not know whether or not they were
22 houseware companies, or people in the housewares industry
23 listed in them, did you? 24 A I didn't know one way or another. But I don't think 25 that's the point.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5641 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. TRABULUS: Move to strike, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Yes. Motion granted.
3 Strike out t
he answer after I didn't know one way
4 or another.
5 Mr. Skonie, listen to the question. Please try
6 to answer responsively.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
8 THE COURT: Most of the questions call for a yes
9 or no answer.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
11 THE COURT: If you cannot answer yes or no, just
12 say I can't answer yes or no.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay.
14 THE COURT: And if the government thinks any of
15 your answers are incomplete, they will have a chance to
16 ask you later on. Okay?
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
18 Q So, it is fair to say that you did not give the
19 directory or the CD-ROM a chance for use in networking; is
20 that correct?
21 A I did not purchase it.
22 Q Now, when you told you were nominated were you told
23 by one person or a committee, or was that detail not 24 supplied? 25 A My recollection is tha
t I was nominated by a person.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5642 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 Q That's just your recollection; is that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Are you certain about that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Before you were told you were just nominated; is that
6 correct?
7 A I was nominated. And I asked who nominated me. And
8 the person said we cannot give the name of the person. It
9 is confidential. So that would indicate to me that it was
10 a person.
11 Q Okay.
12 When you received the -- withdrawn.
13 Any other type of industries besides housewares
14 you might have wanted to network with?
15 A It's possible.
16 Q Now, if you had networked with anybody, the odds of
17 you networking with the person who nominated you would be
18 quite small, would it not?
19 A I don't understand that quest
ion. If someone
20 nominated me, I am assuming I would know them already, and
21 would not necessarily need to network with someone I knew
22 already.
23 Q Exactly, sir. 24 What I am getting at is that the people you were 25 looking to network with were not people you already knew;
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5643 Skonie-cross/Trabulus
1 is that correct?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q And they were not people who could have nominated
4 you; is that correct?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q So, as far as those people were concerned it made no
7 difference whether you were nominated by another
8 individual who was a member, or whether your name came
9 from another source, so long as the group of people,
10 yourself and those people, were suitable for a networking;
11 is that correct?
12 A I can't answer t
hat in a yes or no manner.
13 Q And you did indicate that the prime reason that you
14 yourself became a member was with a view to networking; is
15 that correct?
16 A That was a reason. I didn't say it was the prime
17 reason.
18 MR. TRABULUS: I have no further questions.
19 THE COURT: Anything else?
20 MR. DUNN: Yes, your Honor.
21
22 CROSS-EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. DUNN: 24 Q Good morning, Mr. Skonie. 25 A Good morning.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5644 Skonie-cross/Dunn
1 Q My name is Thomas Dunn, obviously I am up here, so I
2 am one of the attorneys.
3 Mr. Skonie, in your business of sales, you want
4 to contact obviously people who are interested in your
5 product; is that correct?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q And you seem to have the special knowledge of mailing
8
lists; is that correct?
9 A I wouldn't say a special, but I have a knowledge of
10 mailing lists.
11 Q And in your business do you use mailing lists?
12 A Do we use them? No.
13 Q Never?
14 A Never.
15 Q Never have used them?
16 A No.
17 Q How many customers do you have?
18 A The total company, everyone combined, less than 50.
19 Q Less than 50 customers?
20 A Less than 50.
21 Q Do you know that there were 3,948 members of Who's
22 Who Worldwide in Illinois?
23 A No, I did not know that. 24 Q Did you know that -- you are in electronics, correct? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5645 Skonie-cross/Dunn
1 Q There were 1,126 members of Who's Who Worldwide in
2 electronics?
3 A No, I did not know that.
4 Q Did you know that there were over 6,700 members of
5 Who's Who Worldwide who had expertise in sales, did you
6 know that?
7 A I did not know that.
8 Q Your hobbies included fishing; is that correct?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q Did you know that there were 5,760 members of Who's
11 Who Worldwide whose main hobby was fishing?
12 A I did not know that.
13 Q Do you think if you had an opportunity to network
14 with people who were in electronics and who had a hobby of
15 fishing, that you might be able to establish an opening of
16 a door where business discussions may ensue?
17 A It's possible.
18 Q Now, when you joined Who's Who Worldwide, you spoke
19 to a woman; is that correct?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q Did you learn that her name was Marilyn Pierce?
22 A I don't recall her name.
23 Q Would it surprise you to know that Ms. Pierce is not 24 in this courtroom? 25 A No, it wouldn'
t surprise me.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5646 Skonie-cross/Dunn
1 Q You wanted to join this organization, is that
2 correct?
3 A Obviously I wouldn't have joined it if I didn't want
4 to.
5 Q And you said that you didn't do anything with the
6 plaque; is that correct?
7 A That's correct. Eventually I threw the plaque a way.
8 Q Sir, you didn't do anything at all with the plaque
9 when you first got it?
10 A I put it on the side.
11 Q You had been told -- you had joined an organization
12 called Who's Who, correct? And you were told you were
13 going to get a plaque?
14 A Right.
15 Q Is that correct?
16 A That's right.
17 Q And you never did anything with that plaque?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q Is that right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And when you spoke with the government
, they spoke to
22 you about mailing lists; is that correct? They spoke to
23 you about mailing lists when you spoke to them; is that 24 correct? 25 A The term mailing list came up.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5647 Skonie-cross/Dunn
1 Q It came up when they questioned you; is that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And that came up and also correspondence from the
4 government?
5 A I don't know if I received any correspondence, any
6 written correspondence.
7 Q You had phone conversations with them?
8 A They called me to invite me to come here, yes.
9 Q Did you ever fill out any kind of questionnaire that
10 they sent you?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And as you sit there now, you have no independent
13 recollection as to whether they asked you about mailing
14 lists?
15 A The term "mailing list" came up,
yes.
16 Q Sir, isn't it a fact that when you were advised that
17 you were considered for Who's Who Worldwide that you were
18 pleased by that; isn't that correct?
19 A I wasn't displeased.
20 Q So you were pleased?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And you were pleased that you were going to become
23 part of an organization where you might get some 24 networking benefits; is that correct? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5648 Skonie-cross/Dunn
1 MR. DUNN: I have no further questions.
2 MR. LEE: I have a couple of questions, your
3 Honor.
4
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. LEE:
7 Q Good morning, Mr. Skonie.
8 A Good morning.
9 Q My name is Winston Lee, L E E.
10 Q Mr. Skonie, when did you arrive in New York?
11 A I wear hearing aids, would you please speak into the
12 microphone.
13 Q How is this?
14 A A little better.
15 Q Do you hear me now, sir?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q When did you arrive in New York in connection with
18 this case?
19 A Last night.
20 Q Prior to coming here today, you had received at least
21 a questionnaire from the Postal Inspection Service about
22 this matter; is that right?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q And then you had some conversations with someone from 25 this table, perhaps Ms. Scott or Mr. White or Inspector
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5649 Skonie-cross/Lee
1 Pagano?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q When did that occur?
4 A I believe I had one telephone conversation with
5 Mr. Pagano, a telephone conversation with Ms. Scott, and I
6 met Ms. Scott this morning.
7 Q Was that the first time you spoke to someone
in
8 person, Ms. Scott this morning?
9 A Yes.
10 Q From the government?
11 A Yes.
12 Q How long was that conversation?
13 A Over breakfast.
14 Q You sat down and had breakfast with her?
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q Did she have any materials with her, paper, documents
17 to go over with you?
18 A Oh, yes.
19 Q Okay.
20 And that had been -- are you hear by subpoena,
21 sir?
22 A No.
23 Q Did you receive a subpoena? 24 A No. 25 Q Am I correct that that the first time you had an
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5650 Skonie-cross/Lee
1 opportunity to actually take a look at this registry that
2 Mr. Trabulus showed you was today, right?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q And that's the first opportunity of anyone ever
5 giving you to examine the registry; is that correct?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q Ms. Scott did not offer to show it to you, did she?
8 A No.
9 Q Or anyone else?
10 A No.
11 Q Did anyone from the government inform you as to the
12 number of people who are members of the registry, and who
13 they were? Anyone inform you of that?
14 A No.
15 Q So, the first time you had access to that
16 information, the first time somebody provided this
17 knowledge to you was somebody from the defense,
18 Mr. Trabulus, correct?
19 A That's right.
20 Q And the first time you had an opportunity to really
21 know what kind of value that you could get from the CD-ROM
22 was someone from the defense? Mr. Trabulus had to show it
23 to you, right? He showed you the CD-ROM up there; is that 24 correct? 25 A He showed me these books.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
565
1 Skonie-cross/Lee
1 Q Excuse me. And he discussed the CD-ROM with you,
2 right?
3 A He showed me the CD-ROM on the screen.
4 Q And there was an indication from you upon recognizing
5 certain names, at least in the hypothetical that you might
6 be interested in contacting those people? Didn't you say
7 that for networking purposes?
8 A The names were people in our business who may or may
9 not be of help to me in my business.
10 Q In your business?
11 A That's right.
12 Q And was -- were you ever given that opportunity by
13 anyone from the government to review the CD-ROM and kind
14 of just acclimate yourself to what was in it and what you
15 could do with it?
16 A Nobody showed me the CD-ROM.
17 Q Nobody did that either.
18 So, you had a conversation with Ms. Scott, and
19 did she do most -- she definitely -- it would be fair to
20 say that she had the questions in mind that she wanted to
21 clear up with you and speak to you about over breakfast;
22 is that correct -- let me withdraw the question. It
23 wasn't clear. 24 Did it appear to you that she definitely was 25 intent on covering some topics with you when she spoke to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5652 Skonie-cross/Lee
1 you over breakfast?
2 A She told me what the experience would be like in the
3 courtroom; that I would be shown pieces of paper; I would
4 be asked questions. She had the paper that I had filled
5 out the questionnaire in her possession.
6 Q And she kind of went over it with you, kind of going
7 over points that she felt she wanted to go over with you;
8 is that correct?
9 A I wouldn't say she went over with me. She explained
10 to me the procedure here today.
11 Q She didn't do any of the things or tell you about the
12 things I just asked you about, what Mr. Trabulus asked you
13 about; is that correct?
14 A We did not discuss the CD-ROMs and the book.
15 Q And your expertise is what you told us. Have you
16 ever testified in a court of law, sir?
17 A Yes, I have.
18 Q In connection with what?
19 A I testified some years ago in a Securities and
20 Exchange Commission investigation.
21 Q Was that a criminal action?
22 A I beg your pardon?
23 Q Was it a criminal proceeding? 24 A I don't know. I am not a lawyer. 25 Q Are you aware that this is a criminal proceeding?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5653 Skonie-cross/Lee
1 A Yes.
2 Q And you are a witness in a case, right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Now, in that case, was there a substantial -- who
5 were you a witness for?
6 A I don't understand what you said.
7 Q Did you testify in that case, the securities case?
8 A Yes, I did.
9 Q All right.
10 And who were you a witness for?
11 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
12 THE COURT: Sustained.
13 Q Now, in that case, were you provided -- were you
14 provided with material to review prior to your testimony
15 in that other case?
16 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
17 THE COURT: Sustain. Desist from that other
18 case.
19 Q Mr. Skonie, did the thought ever occur to you, and
20 you can answer the question yes or no, did the thought
21 ever occur to you that the government was intentionally
22 withholding information from you that would be useful in
23 your testimony here? 24 MS. SCOTT: Objection. 25 THE COURT: Sustained.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5654 Skonie-cross/Lee
1 Q Did the thought ever occur to you that they were only
2 feeding you what they wanted you to know so that you would
3 get the wrong or false exception --
4 A I take exception to that.
5 THE COURT: Excuse me.
6 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.
7 THE COURT: When you see counsel rise to her
8 feet, that's the red flag warning.
9 MS. SCOTT: I withdraw the objection.
10 THE COURT: Pardon me?
11 MS. SCOTT: I withdrew it, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: I will not let him answer that way
13 anyway. Do you want to object?
14 MS. SCOTT: Yes, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
16 When she rises to her feet you will know she is
17 making an objection, or thinking about it seriously, one
18 or the other.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 THE COURT: When she says "objection", don't
21 answer.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 Q You answered emphatically, absolutely not, and that 24 thought never occurred to you that they would leave you 25 with the false impression of what this company was? Did
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5655 Skonie-cross/Lee
1 that thought enter your mind?
2 A No.
3 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
4 THE COURT: Strike out the answer. Sustained.
5 Mr. Lee, desist. You covered the ground
6 sufficiently.
7 MR. LEE: No further questions.
8 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, may I ask one or two
9 questions?
10 THE COURT: Absolutely, Mr. Jenks. I wouldn't
11 leave you out.
12 MR. JENKS: Thank you, your Honor.
13
14 CROSS-EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. JENKS:
16 Q Mr. Skonie, the conversation you had with the Who's
17 Who employee was some five years ago; is that correct?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q Did you make any handwritten notes of that
20 conversation?
21 A No, I did not.
22 Q You work about 50 weeks out of the year; is that
23 correct? 24 A Some years more, some years less. 25 Q All right. Let's say 50 on an average.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5656 Skonie-cross/Jenks
1 A Right.
2 Q You have salesmen that work for you?
3 A Yes, I do.
4 Q How many salesmen do you have in that company, Walter
5 Nye and Company?
6 A Six to ten.
7 Q You have telephone conversations everyday with those
8 people?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Telephone conversation, with the manufacturers?
11 A Yes.
12 Q How many calls do you take a day, 20, 30 calls a day?
13 A I wouldn't say that many, 10 or 12.
14 Q 10 or 12?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And you do other things in your office; i
s that
17 correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And as you sit here you are able to recount the
20 conversation that you had in March of 1993, almost
21 verbatim?
22 A I don't believe I said anything verbatim. I gave you
23 general context of the conversation. 24 Q Excuse me. You said in sum and substance what this 25 woman told you; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5657 Skonie-cross/Jenks
1 A Yes.
2 Q You remember the magic word that you were nominated;
3 is that correct?
4 A Absolutely.
5 Q Did the government show you anything to suggest that
6 perhaps you were in fact nominated?
7 A No, they did not.
8 Q Did they show you that you were or were not nominated
9 by Sears or Walgreens or one of the manufacturers you deal
10 with?
11 A No.
12 Q Did they show you any
thing or suggest anything that
13 you were nominated by someone in your area in Illinois?
14 A No.
15 Q As you sit here today, can you answer for this jury a
16 hundred percent as to whether you were in fact nominated
17 or not?
18 A I can answer 100 percent that I was told I was
19 nominated.
20 Q You were told. But as you sit here do you know for a
21 fact as to whether or not another member actually
22 nominated you for inclusion in this registry?
23 A I don't know one way or another. 24 Q All right. 25 Let me ask you this: When you received a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5658 Skonie-cross/Jenks
1 questionnaire from the government, you received a
2 questionnaire sometime around 1995; is that correct?
3 A I don't remember the date that the questionnaire from
4 the government came.
5 Q If
I told you June of 1995, would that refresh your
6 recollection?
7 A I would say it is possible.
8 Q Well, let's take a look at it, okay?
9 I am showing you Government's Exhibit 3500-TRS-1,
10 for Identification.
11 Is there a date on there?
12 A June 26th, 1995.
13 THE COURT: You have to pull the microphone
14 closer. We are having trouble hearing you.
15 THE WITNESS: June 26th, 1995.
16 Q Does that refresh your recollection as to when you
17 received this questionnaire?
18 A Yes.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Skonie, you have to wait until
20 Mr. Jenks concludes the question. I know you are anxious
21 to get back to Naperville, Illinois, but you have to wait
22 until the question is over before you answer.
23 Q Now, when you got this questionnaire, you got a cover 24 letter with the questionnaire, do you recall that? 25 A I don't recall.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5659 Skonie-cross/Jenks
1 Q Do you recall -- withdrawn.
2 When you got this questionnaire, what was your
3 initial reaction to this when you received the
4 questionnaire?
5 A My initial reaction was I filled out the
6 questionnaire and I sent it back.
7 Q Did you believe something was fishy with Who's Who
8 Worldwide or Sterling Who's Who by the content of the
9 questionnaire and the letter you received in the mail from
10 the government?
11 A I believe the government was trying to collect
12 information on this company.
13 Q You believed there was an investigation; is that
14 correct?
15 A Possible.
16 Q When you filled out the questionnaire, is it a fair
17 statement to say that you knew the government was
18 investigating the conduct of these companies; is that
19 correct?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q I mean, you didn't just get the questionnaire and
22 think the government was doing some kind of informational
23 survey, did you? 24 A No. 25 Q And with respect to this invoice that Ms. Scott
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5660 Skonie-cross/Jenks
1 showed you, Government's Exhibit 67-B, I take it you are
2 the president of this company; is that correct?
3 A That is correct.
4 Q And you have a secretary that works for you?
5 A Yes, I do.
6 Q You signed your membership sometime around September
7 of 1993; is that correct?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q And I take it you did receive a copy of this in the
10 mail, right, listing your biographical data?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q You had an opportunity to review it; is that correct?
13 A That is
correct.
14 Q Did you see down here that your membership was going
15 to be split billed, and the final payment of $97 is due in
16 December when the Who's Who Registry is released?
17 A I didn't read that.
18 Q Did you bother to look at it? You spent $297 for a
19 membership, correct?
20 The company didn't scam you, it is here in black
21 and white that in order to get a registry you were going
22 to have to pay another $97; is that right?
23 A I didn't read it. 24 Q Is that the company's fault that you didn't read the 25 document sent to you?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5661 Skonie-cross/Jenks
1 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 MR. JENKS: I have nothing further, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Anything else?
5 MR. NEVILLE: A couple, your Honor.
6
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. NEVILLE:
9 Q Hi. My name is Jim Neville, and I represent Scott
10 Michaelson.
11 When did you leave your home to come here to
12 testify?
13 A Yesterday afternoon.
14 Q Did you fly here?
15 A Yes.
16 Q The government paid for your ticket?
17 A Yes.
18 Q The government paid for your breakfast?
19 A Yes.
20 Q The government paid for your hotel room?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Let me ask you this, sir: You are a busy man in
23 business, right? 24 A Uh-huh. 25 Q And if you weren't here today you would be sitting in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5662 Skonie-cross/Neville
1 your office, or you would be doing some work, taking phone
2 calls or speaking to sales reps, things like that?
3 A Right.
4 Q Doing your job?
5 A Correct.
6 Q Earning a living,
right?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q So, how many hours have you been away from your
9 office or away from your job on account of coming here to
10 testify, two days worth, three days worth?
11 A No. About four hours.
12 Q Okay.
13 When are you going to get back to work?
14 A When I leave and get on an airplane, if it is before
15 5:00 I will go back to the office. If it is after 5:00 I
16 will go home.
17 Q So, you will miss at least one day of work?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q Eight hours, ten hours, how many hours a day is for
20 you?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q And after you got this plaque, and you said you were
23 agitated or disappointed with it, you didn't pick up the 24 phone and call and ask for a refund? 25 A I didn't say I was agitated or disappointed with the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5663 Skonie-cross/Neville
1 plaque. I said I was agitated with the process, and I did
2 not use the plaque.
3 Q But you have taken a whole day off from work at least
4 one full day; is that correct?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And you have come to New York to testify so lawyers
7 could ask you questions?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q And you are missing opportunities on the job?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q And you didn't pick up the phone and ask for a
12 refund?
13 A I don't see how that is related.
14 Q Well, you are wasting a whole day from your job to
15 come here and testify?
16 A I don't consider doing the obligation of a citizen a
17 waste of time.
18 Q Do you feel now as you testified that you are doing
19 some duty as a citizen?
20 A I think the legal process depends on citizens to
21 testify if they are asked to t
estify, absolutely.
22 Q And you are here merely because you are doing a job
23 as a citizen, doing your duty as a citizen, and doing 24 something for the government? 25 A I was asked to testify, and I came to testify.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5664 Skonie-cross/Neville
1 Q So, if you had not been asked to testify you would
2 never have volunteered to testify; is that right?
3 A Of course not. I wouldn't have known that this
4 existed had I not been asked.
5 Q Did you ever make any complaints to any better
6 business bureau or anything like that on this?
7 A On testifying? I wouldn't complain to the Better
8 Business Bureau about testifying.
9 Q No. It is not what I meant, sir. About this
10 registry and this company and this experience you had?
11 A I complained to the representative of the company.
12
Q That was not my question.
13 Did you complain to a Better Business Bureau?
14 A No.
15 Q You didn't call to get your money back?
16 A No.
17 Q You wouldn't be here unless the government asked you
18 to come?
19 A Obviously someone asked me to come. That's why I am
20 here. If no one asked me I wouldn't be here because I
21 wouldn't know it was going on.
22 Q Right. If the government hadn't sent you the
23 questionnaire, you wouldn't have known anything is going 24 on with this case, right? 25 A I guess so, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5665 Skonie-cross/Neville
1 Q Have you ever heard of Marquis Who's Who?
2 A No.
3 Q Have you ever heard of any Who's Who publications?
4 A Sterling Who's Who and I heard of Who's Who
5 Worldwide.
6 Q You never heard of any other kind of Who's
Whos?
7 A Who's Who is a kind of general term, I have learned
8 afterwards that there is more than one Who's Who.
9 Q Would it surprise you to know that there is a Who's
10 Who called Marquis Who's Who, that is owned by a Dutch
11 conglomerate, a Dutch corporation?
12 A No, it wouldn't surprise me.
13 Q Would it surprise you to know that Marquis Who's Who
14 sued this company for trademark infringement?
15 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 Q Would it surprise you to learn that Marquis Who's Who
18 also uses mailing lists to attract people?
19 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 MR. NEVILLE: No further questions.
22 MR. NELSON: May I ask questions?
23 THE COURT: Surely. 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5666 Skonie-cross/Nelson
1 CROSS-EXAMIN
ATION
2 BY MR. NELSON:
3 Q Good morning, Mr. Skonie.
4 A Good morning.
5 Q My name is Alan Nelson.
6 I believe you testified when Mr. Dunn, the tall
7 gentleman, asked you some questions, that when you
8 received the wall plaque you really didn't look at it and
9 sort of put it on the side; is that right?
10 A I obviously looked at it. But I didn't use it. I
11 put it on the side.
12 Q Not because there was anything wrong with the wall
13 plaque, you just weren't particularly interested in the
14 plaque, because the reason why you joined Who's Who
15 Worldwide was because you wanted the membership, which was
16 the key to your joining; is that correct?
17 A It seems correct, yes.
18 Q And I believe you testified on direct examination
19 when questioned by Ms. Scott, that you are largely in the
20 business of contacts, and you needed to netwo
rk; is that
21 correct?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q And the reason why you saw Who's Who Worldwide as 24 being an effective or appropriate organization to join was 25 the possibilities for business contacts that membership in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5667 Skonie-cross/Nelson
1 the organization would offer; is that right?
2 A That is correct.
3 Q Now, I believe you testified -- and I was writing
4 down some of the notes based on what you testified to --
5 that when you received the invoice for the registry, you
6 decided not to pay the additional sum of money because you
7 were agitated because you assumed you would have known by
8 that point who the other members were; do you recall
9 having given that testimony?
10 A No. I said I didn't read that portion of the
11 invoice, and I became agitated when the
person called me
12 on the phone to sell me the directory.
13 Q Okay.
14 You see now that the invoice does indicate that
15 the -- this is the invoice that you would have received
16 within a month after you joined Who's Who Worldwide, that
17 in order to acquire the registry, you would have to pay an
18 additional sum of $97; is that right?
19 A It says that.
20 Q And the reason why you would have joined Who's Who
21 Worldwide was a business decision; it was for purposes of
22 expanding your business and earning more money; is that
23 correct? 24 A And because I had been nominated by someone and 25 hopefully did not wish to offend, possibly offend someone
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5668 Skonie-cross/Nelson
1 who nominated me.
2 Q And likewise that would have been a business decision
3 on your pa
rt, that you didn't want to offend a former
4 customer of yours, or a present customer of yours, who you
5 felt might have nominated you; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And the reason you might have purchased membership
8 for the networking reasons would have been to necessarily
9 acquire new business; is that right?
10 A That's a true statement, yes.
11 Q And by not paying the additional fee of $97, you
12 never acquired the registry; is that right?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q And you never acquired the CD-ROM; is that right?
15 A That is correct.
16 Q And you never had the opportunity to utilize the
17 CD-ROM as Mr. Trabulus was demonstrating to you, to
18 attempt to acquire the names of people who could
19 potentially be individuals whom you could network within
20 acquire new business; is that right? Just yes or no,
21 sir? Yes or no.
22 A
I never -- I never acquired the books.
23 Q Okay. 24 So, as a result of your annoyance over the fact 25 that there was an additional $97 fee due in an invoice you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5669 Skonie-cross/Nelson
1 received within a month of your joining, you never gave
2 Who's Who Worldwide the opportunity to demonstrate to you
3 its networking abilities that could have made your
4 business a better, stronger and more possible -- more
5 powerful -- more profitable business; is that right, sir?
6 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.
7 Q $97 would have been a fairly cheap price to gain some
8 fairly large customers, would you agree?
9 A That's your assumption, and not mine.
10 MR. NELSON: Thank you. I have no further
11 questions.
12
13 CROSS-EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. SCHOER:
15 Q Mr. Sk
onie, good morning.
16 A Good morning.
17 Q Other than the invoice you received, did you receive
18 any other mailings from Who's Who?
19 A Just the one to Mr. Nye.
20 Q That was not from Who's Who Worldwide, was it?
21 A From Sterling Who's Who.
22 Q It wasn't from Who's Who Worldwide, was it?
23 A That's right. 24 Q Did you receive any other mailings from Who's Who 25 Worldwide?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5670 Skonie-cross/Schoer
1 A Not that I can recall.
2 Q Did you receive a membership package in any way that
3 told you the benefits?
4 A I received the plaque and some other items, but I
5 don't remember what the other items were.
6 Q Did you receive any magazines?
7 A Not that I recall.
8 Q I will show you what is marked as AB in evidence, AE
9 in evidence.
10 Do y
ou remember receiving a welcoming letter, and
11 a little brochure with respect to benefits?
12 (Handed to the witness.)
13 A I don't remember.
14 Q You might have received those, right?
15 A It's possible.
16 Q I will show you what is marked as
17 Defendant's Exhibit H, Gordon-H.
18 (Handed to the witness.)
19 Q That's a magazine. Do you remember receiving that?
20 A I don't remember receiving this.
21 Q Looking at that magazine, is it fair to say that you
22 were interested in housewares and electronics, those are
23 two separate areas; is that my understanding? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And would a person like the retired chairman and CEO
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5671 Skonie-cross/Schoer
1 of Emerson Electric be someone you might be interested in
2 talking to in networking?
3 A Yes.
4 Q In electronics?
5 How about the president and CEO of GE Appliances?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Is that someone you would be interested in?
8 A Yes.
9 Q How about the president of Norsk, N O R S K?
10 A I don't know them.
11 Q They make housewares, from Norway, I believe. It is
12 a Norwegian company making housewares.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Would you be interested in someone like that?
15 A Absolutely.
16 Q Did you know that all those people were profiled in
17 this magazine as being members of Who's Who Worldwide?
18 A They are profiled in there?
19 Q Now, you filled out a questionnaire; is that correct?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q And in the questionnaire you were asked this
22 question, question number 25:
23 What were the primary reasons for your decision 24 to purchase a directory or become a member? 25 Your answer to that was,
seemed to present a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5672 Skonie-cross/Schoer
1 business opportunity.
2 Do you remember being asked that question and
3 giving that answer?
4 A Yes.
5 Q You didn't say anything in there as a nomination
6 being a reason or a primary reason even for being --
7 withdrawn.
8 You didn't say anything in your answer that
9 nomination was one of the primary reasons for purchasing
10 this membership, did you?
11 A It was one of the primary reasons. But I didn't say
12 it in that particular specific case.
13 Q All right.
14 You were given the opportunity in June of 1995,
15 to write out the primary reasons; is that fair to say, in
16 this questionnaire?
17 A I filled out a questionnaire in June of 1995, yes.
18 Q And you were given an opportunity to set forth the
19 primary reasons, plural, for your decision to purchase a
20 membership; isn't that right?
21 A I filled out that questionnaire, yes, that's correct.
22 Q And you were given that -- you were given in that
23 questionnaire the opportunity to fill out and set forth 24 the primary reasons, plural, for your purchasing the 25 membership; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5673 Skonie-cross/Schoer
1 A I was given that opportunity.
2 Q And you took that opportunity by putting an answer to
3 that question; isn't that so?
4 A I put that answer down that is on that sheet, yes.
5 Q And you didn't say anything in that answer about
6 nominations, right?
7 A Not in that sheet, I did not.
8 Q You talked about the salespeople you have employed by
9 you; is that right?
10 A That is correct.
11 Q You sa
id none of them have quotas?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Are those people on straight -- are your salespeople
14 on straight commissions?
15 A Some are and some are not.
16 Q If the salespeople that are on -- that are not on
17 straight commissions, if they didn't make any sales, would
18 you continue to employ them?
19 A It depends on what the circumstances were.
20 Q If the salespeople were not on commission that you
21 were paying a salary to, made no sales at all, would you
22 continue to employ them?
23 A It depends on the conditions I had given them. It is 24 possible -- 25 Q You would give them a production quota, they would
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5674 Skonie-cross/Schoer
1 have to go out and make sales?
2 A I already told you I didn't give quotas.
3 Q You are telling us you would contin
ue to employ
4 someone, pay a salary to them if they were totally
5 unproductive?
6 A I didn't say that.
7 Q If they made no sales?
8 A It is possible.
9 MR. SCHOER: I have nothing further.
10 THE COURT: Anything else?
11 Any redirect?
12 MS. SCOTT: Yes, there is, your Honor. May I
13 have a moment?
14 THE COURT: Yes.
15 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
16 proceedings.)
17
18 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
19 BY MS. SCOTT:
20 Q Mr. Skonie, on cross-examination you were shown the
21 CD-ROM; is that correct?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q You were asked a number of questions about a magazine 24 that Who's Who Worldwide published. 25 A Right.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5675 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 Q Now, through these questions, particularly th
e
2 questions about the CD-ROM, you were given some names of
3 individuals in your industry; is that right?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q And you were asked if you would want to network with
6 those people; is that correct?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q You answered in some cases you might be interested in
9 networking with those people; is that correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And at one point, you said that that is not the
12 point; do you remember saying that?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Can you tell us what you meant by that?
15 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor. That was a
16 motion to --
17 THE COURT: Objection without statement, please.
18 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, may we approach?
21 THE COURT: No. Overruled.
22 A The point is these names, I can get these names for
23 free from any number o
f sources. I can get them from show 24 listings from trade shows. I can get them from trade 25 directories, I can get them from the phone book. I can
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5676 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 look up General Electric in the phone book and call them
2 up and say any want to talk to the chairman of the board
3 of General Electric.
4 My possibility of talking to them if I got it out
5 of the phone book or out of these books is nil. I mean, I
6 get the names of all these people in any number of ways
7 for free without joining a group or an association.
8 I can go on the Internet and get those names for
9 free. I can go on the Internet and get a listing of
10 companies and their CEOs and marketing people, in any
11 number of ways for a fraction of what this cost.
12 Q So, would you be willing to pay $290 for a lis
t of
13 the names?
14 A Absolutely not.
15 Q Now, in addition when you were asked about a CD-ROM,
16 and about the directory, you were also asked about whether
17 in fact you had given the company a chance when you
18 declined to purchase these items; do you recall that
19 question?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Were you willing to pay an additional $100 for those
22 items?
23 A Not for a list of names, no. 24 Q You were also asked questions about what the 25 government spoke to you about in the discussions before
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5677 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 today?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q Do you remember being asked if the government had
4 mentioned mailing lists to you?
5 A We talked about the fact --
6 THE COURT: No. The question is were you asked?
7 Were you asked t
hat question in cross-examination.
8 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question, please.
9 Q In cross-examination today you were asked questions
10 by defense counsel about whether the government had spoken
11 to you about mailing lists. Do you remember those
12 questions today?
13 A I remember that question.
14 Q Now, when your company received a letter for
15 Mr. Nye -- withdrawn.
16 When your company received a letter for Mr. Nye,
17 you were surprised by that; is that correct?
18 MR. JENKS: Objection.
19 Q When your company received a letter for Mr. Nye,
20 Mr. Nye was at that time dead; is that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q How long had he been dead?
23 A Mr. Nye -- I am trying to jog my memory. I have a 16 24 year old son. And Mr. Nye died the year he was born. So 25 Mr. Nye died approximately 1981.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFF
ICIAL COURT REPORTER
5678 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 Q Now, when you received, and saw that letter to
2 Mr. Nye, where did you suspect that the company obtained
3 that name?
4 MR. JENKS: Objection.
5 THE COURT: Sustained. Desist from Mr. Nye.
6 Q Now, do you remember being asked questions from
7 defense counsel about how many people you talked to each
8 day in connection with your business?
9 A That's correct, yes.
10 Q Do you remember you said you talk to a large number
11 of people?
12 A Some days yes. Some days more. I make a lot of
13 phone calls, a reasonable number of phone calls.
14 Q Do you remember being asked whether, nevertheless,
15 you could remember a conversation that took place five
16 years ago from Who's Who Worldwide?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q How is it that you are able to remember that
19 conversation?
20 A Because I was irritated to the point that I didn't
21 forget. Some things you remember. Some things kind of
22 float off into never-never.
23 If something happens from a person that impacts 24 you, you remember. If you run your car into a wall you 25 remember. If you become very agitated over a business
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5679 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 situation you tend to remember those things. And I
2 remember that conversation. It just didn't flow into the
3 rest of the day. It stood out a lot.
4 Q Now, you were asked if you were agitated.
5 Withdrawn.
6 You were asked questions about when your
7 irritation with the company began, do you recall those
8 questions?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Can you tell us what caused your initial irritation
11 with the company?
12 A When I first got it
I asked about how I had been
13 selected, about how things were done. As I got kind of
14 into the process and got asked for the book, it struck me
15 as being less of an opportunity to -- it didn't flow the
16 way a normal association with which you join flows. You
17 join something. Generally you get a membership, or you
18 find out other people who are in it, or what the
19 organizationally purposes are, whatever. But it went from
20 one paying of money, and the next issue was again money.
21 MR. LEE: Objection, your Honor.
22 A And that irritated me.
23 THE COURT: You are objecting on what ground? 24 MR. LEE: After "normally" I don't think it is 25 responsive.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5680 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 THE COURT: Yes. I will strike the entire answer
2 and tell the jury to please disregard it.
3 Q Now, you remember Mr. Jenks showed you the
4 questionnaire you filled out in 1995?
5 A That's right.
6 Q Do you remember Mr. Jenks asking you whether this
7 questionnaire gave you the impression that there was
8 something fishy about the company?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q When did you first get the impression that there was
11 something fishy about the company?
12 A When I refused to pay for the directory, and asked
13 again who had nominated me.
14 Q And was that before you received the government's
15 questionnaire?
16 A Yes, it is.
17 Q Do you remember Mr. Jenks showed you the invoice?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Government's Exhibit 67-B?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Do you remember he showed you the language in the
22 blue box that mentioned the split billing?
23 A Yes. 24 Q In your telephone conversation with the salespersons
2
5 who initially sold you the membership, did that person
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5681 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 ever mention to you that you would be expected to pay more
2 than $290 in connection with this membership?
3 A No.
4 Q And the invoice that you had seen today with the blue
5 box, did you have that invoice at the time that you made
6 the purchase, that you made the decision to make the
7 purchase?
8 A No.
9 Q That invoice came after you made the purchase; is
10 that correct?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q Now, you were also asked questions about some answers
13 you gave on your questionnaire; do you recall those
14 questions?
15 A Right.
16 Q In particular you were asked about your answer to
17 question 25, which asked for your primary reason for
18 purchasing the membership; do yo
u remember that?
19 A Right.
20 MR. SCHOER: Objection. Question 25 -- I am
21 sorry, Judge.
22 THE COURT: Let me hear the question, please,
23 Mr. Reporter. 24 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the 25 requested material.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5682 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 THE COURT: You are objecting to that?
2 MR. SCHOER: Objection to the question, Judge.
3 THE COURT: Why?
4 MR. SCHOER: Because question 25 asks for the
5 primary reasons, in plural, and not the primary reason as
6 formulated by Ms. Scott.
7 THE COURT: Do you amend your question?
8 MS. SCOTT: I amend my questions, yes.
9 THE COURT: Does that satisfy your objection?
10 MR. SCHOER: Yes, sir.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 This is like diplomatic, before they decided not
13 to bomb Iraq, diplomatic negotiat
ions going on, you see.
14 Go ahead.
15 Q Do you remember being asked whether this question
16 gave you an opportunity to present the primary reasons why
17 you purchased your membership?
18 A I am becoming confused here? I really am.
19 Q I will rephrase it.
20 Do you remember defense counsel asking you
21 whether this question gave you an opportunity to set forth
22 the primary reasons why you purchased the membership?
23 A I guess it gave me the opportunity. Yes, he asked 24 that, yes. 25 Q Do you remember him also asking you whether you had
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5683 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 mentioned nomination in your answer to that question?
2 A He asked me that.
3 Q I will show you questionnaire and ask you to look in
4 particular at questions number 15 and 26.
5 (Handed to the witnes
s.)
6 A Okay.
7 Q Did those questions give you the opportunity to set
8 forth the reasons, primary reasons why you purchased the
9 membership?
10 A Yes, it did.
11 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 Q Your answer is?
14 A I can read it.
15 Q The answer.
16 A Yes, it did. It says --
17 THE COURT: The question is: Did it provide you
18 with another opportunity to set forth some reasons?
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Yes, it did.
20 Q And having looked at that questionnaire does it
21 refresh your recollection about other reasons you gave for
22 purchasing the membership when you filled out the
23 questionnaire? 24 A Yes, it does. 25 Q Can you tell us in substance what those answers were,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5684 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 without
reading?
2 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
3 THE COURT: Overruled.
4 A It says that I was nominated, and that my answer was
5 that I responded that that was one of the reasons why I
6 was nominated. And that's one of the reasons why I
7 joined.
8 MS. SCOTT: May I have a moment, your Honor?
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 (Ms. Scott confers with Mr. White.)
11 Q Mr. Skonie, do you remember testifying on
12 cross-examination that you were not certain as to whether
13 or not you were in fact nominated? Do you remember saying
14 that?
15 A No, I --
16 THE COURT: Were you asked a question, as you sit
17 here now, do you know whether you were nominated? Were
18 you asked that question?
19 THE WITNESS: I don't know whether I was
20 nominated or not.
21 THE COURT: You don't know?
22 THE WITNESS: No.
23 THE COURT: You were asked that question
and 24 that's how you answered it. 25 THE WITNESS: I am becoming a little confused
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5685 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 with the questions.
2 THE COURT: Understandably so. Sometimes I am,
3 too. Don't worry about it.
4 Q Mr. Skonie, would you take a look, please, at
5 Government's Exhibit 210, which is in evidence.
6 A Okay.
7 (Handed to the witness.)
8 A Right.
9 Q Now, is that a solicitation letter from Who's Who
10 Worldwide?
11 A Yes, it is.
12 Q Is it similar in substance to the solicitation letter
13 you received in 1993?
14 A I honestly can't say to the specifics.
15 MR. JENKS: Objection, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Yes, sustained.
17 Q Okay.
18 Mr. Skonie, if you take a look at the top of that
19 letter, do you see some handwriting at
the top?
20 MR. JENKS: Objection.
21 THE COURT: Sustained.
22 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, it is in evidence.
23 THE COURT: Let me see the letter. 24 (Handed to the Court.) 25 THE COURT: Sustained.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5686 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, can we approach on that
2 issue?
3 THE COURT: No.
4 Next question.
5 Q Mr. Skonie, if you can look at the card in front of
6 you, Government Exhibit 67-D?
7 A This one?
8 Q Yes.
9 Can you tell us the code appearing on the bottom
10 left-hand corner?
11 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
12 THE COURT: Overruled. I am interested, let's
13 hear.
14 MR. TRABULUS: You heard it already.
15 THE WITNESS: It says GA group FM.
16 THE COURT: No. I am interested how it relates
17 to the question as
to whether he is nominated or not.
18 That one I want to hear.
19 You don't know whether you were ever nominated,
20 right? As you sit here today, you don't know that, do
21 you?
22 THE WITNESS: I was told that I was nominated.
23 But I don't know the fact that I was. 24 THE COURT: You don't know one way or the other. 25 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, this relates to that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5687 Skonie-redirect/Scott
1 issue. That's why we are asking the questions. The codes
2 that appear --
3 MR. LEE: Objection.
4 MR. JENKS: Objection, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 Any other questions?
7 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, may I publish the letter
8 that your Honor has before you, Government's Exhibit --
9 THE COURT: It is in evidence?
10 MS. SCOTT: Yes.
11 THE COURT: You can publis
h anything in
12 evidence.
13 MS. SCOTT: I would ask permission to publish it,
14 Government's Exhibit 67-D, and Government's Exhibit 210.
15 THE COURT: Yes.
16 You thought I would say no to everything?
17 MR. WHITE: Thank you, no further questions.
18 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published
19 to the jury.)
20
21 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. TRABULUS:
23 Q Mr. Skonie, I think you were shown that letter that 24 is being circulated around now, and you can't say whether 25 it is the letter you got; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5688 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 A I can't say that.
2 Q Now, Mr. Skonie, you were asked about some questions
3 on your questionnaire. Do you have the questionnaire with
4 you?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And you were asked by Ms. Scott with re
spect to
7 questions 15 and 26; is that right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You indicated in your answer you said something about
10 being nominated, right?
11 Looking at the answers there, do you see the word
12 "nominated" at all?
13 A Do I see the word, no.
14 Q I think you said that what you were told about how
15 the company obtained your name affected you and made you
16 want to partake, something like that; is that right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you also said an important statement or
19 representation --
20 THE COURT: You have to go slower, Mr. Trabulus.
21 I can't keep up with you. I guess it's me.
22 MR. TRABULUS: No, it is me.
23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 Q You also said that the most important statements or 25 representations made by the company where that was a --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5689 S
konie-recross/Trabulus
1 were that it was a very selective membership, right? Look
2 at number 25 -- 26.
3 A The most important -- that's an answer I put down,
4 very selective membership.
5 Q Now, being very selective has nothing to do with
6 whether or not you were nominated by a particular
7 individual or other member; is that correct? It can still
8 be selective, right?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q Now, you also indicated in this questionnaire that
11 you had received all the items that you expected and
12 within the time frame promised. Take a look at question
13 28. Is that right?
14 A That's right.
15 Q And so, when you purchased the membership, you
16 weren't expecting to receive the directory; is that
17 correct?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q And it was only afterward that you made the decision
20 not to purchase the director
y; is that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q Now, you told Ms. Scott you could get the names in
23 the directory anywhere? 24 A I didn't say any place. I said I could get them out 25 of trade directories, off the Internet, and in some cases
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5690 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 out of phone book.
2 Q You could have contacted those people from those
3 sources; is that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And that would be for free?
6 A Yes.
7 Q If you got it out of those sources and you contacted
8 them, you would not be truthfully be able to say, I am a
9 member of Who's Who Worldwide like you; is that right?
10 A That is correct.
11 Q And when you joined Who's Who Worldwide you were told
12 there was a directory; is that right?
13 A When I joined?
14 Q In the initial tele
phone call, you were told that
15 there was an organization and that through it you would be
16 able to network; is that right?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q And were you told that there was a directory, or some
19 kind of listing of the names that were available?
20 A I don't recall being told that.
21 Q So, you understood, did you not, that the networking
22 would come to you through a bunch of names, and you would
23 be able to get it at some point; is that correct? 24 A Obviously, yes. 25 Q And did you have any reason to believe that those
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5691 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 names were names that you would not be able to find in a
2 trade directory or in a phone book, or over the Internet,
3 or any of the sources that you now told us would be a
4 source for the names?
5 A Could you r
epeat that?
6 Q Sure.
7 When you understood that you would be getting a
8 bunch of names --
9 A Slower, please.
10 Q Sure.
11 When you were told or came to understand that you
12 would be able to get some names of other members, did you
13 think that those were people whose names could not be
14 found in a trade directory?
15 A I can't answer that yes or no.
16 Q Well, when you made the decision not to purchase the
17 directory --
18 A Right.
19 Q -- you had not learned anything more about what was
20 in the directory or the kinds of listing in the directory,
21 or what kind of people were there, or their names, than
22 you had when you decided to purchase a membership; is that
23 correct? 24 A When I purchased a directory, I had not -- I had 25 decided not to purchase it. I had not seen it.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, C
P, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5692 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 Q Let me go back.
2 Between the time when you became a member --
3 A Right.
4 Q -- and the time you decided not to purchase the
5 directory --
6 A Right.
7 Q -- you hadn't learned anything more than you had
8 originally been told about the names of the members in the
9 membership; is that correct?
10 A I think that's correct.
11 Q You didn't learn for the first time between those two
12 times, that those names were names you could get from a
13 trade directory, did you?
14 A No.
15 Q You didn't learn for the first time that those names
16 were names that might have been found in some instances in
17 a telephone book, did you?
18 A No.
19 Q So, really, between the time -- one other thing.
20 As you sit there today you seem to have some
21 doubt
as to whether or not you were nominated; is that
22 correct?
23 A I don't understand the question. 24 Q I think you have been asked that you don't know -- 25 A I was told I was nominated. That's all I can say.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5693 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 Q And between the time that you received -- that you
2 were told that in that initial telephone conversation, and
3 the time you decided not to purchase the directory, had
4 you learned anything new besides what you had originally
5 been told that led you to question that?
6 A No.
7 Q So, your decision not to purchase the directory had
8 nothing to do with whether you had been nominated or not;
9 is that correct?
10 A That's not correct.
11 Q Well, originally you were told that you had been
12 nominated, right?
13 A Yes.
14
Q And then there came a point in time -- withdrawn.
15 When you were told that, in that telephone
16 conversation, you didn't question it, did you?
17 A Yes, I did. I asked who nominated me.
18 Q What I meant was: Did you question -- did you doubt
19 in your mind that you had been nominated?
20 A Did I doubt? No.
21 Q So your decision, you then -- you then purchased the
22 membership; is that correct?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q And then there came a time that you were told if you 25 wanted to purchase the directory, you would have to pay
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5694 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 $97; is that right?
2 A That's right.
3 Q Now, between that time when you were told that you
4 were nominated and you decided not to pay the $97, were
5 you given any further reason to question whether or not
6 you had been nominated?
7 A I didn't talk to anybody in that space of time or
8 have any contact in that space of time.
9 Q So, your decision not to purchase a directory was
10 made on exactly the same information on which you had
11 decided to become a member; is that correct?
12 A I am again becoming confused.
13 Q Let me try it again.
14 When you decided not to purchase the directory,
15 you had not learned anything new about Who's Who
16 Worldwide?
17 A I had a conversation with the representative of Who's
18 Who who called me back. And at that time I said -- we got
19 into the nomination thing again. They said it was
20 confidential.
21 And I said, I don't want to purchase the
22 directory because this is not turning out the way I wanted
23 it to. And then I made the decision not to purchase the 24 directory. 25 Q You were told in
the first conversation it was
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5695 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 confidential?
2 A Yes.
3 Q You were not told it is confidential now and
4 somewhere down the line we will tell you; is that right?
5 A No. I was told it was confidential. But I was never
6 told somewhere down the line I will be told.
7 Q When you were told in the second conversation it was
8 confidential, you were being told exactly the same thing
9 as you were being told originally; is that right?
10 A That's right.
11 Q So, nothing had changed, except now you didn't want
12 to purchase the directory; is that correct?
13 A I told the representative that I did not want to
14 purchase the directory.
15 Q Now, when you originally became a member, and you
16 were thinking about networking, and it occurred to you as
17 a value in networking, to be able to tell someone else
18 whom you wanted to do business with, look, I have
19 something in common with you, I am a member of Who's Who
20 Worldwide just like you; is that correct?
21 A It was not my thought process.
22 Q You might not have said it exactly that way, but it
23 certainly would have been someone who is a member of the 24 same organization, and that may provide the basis for an 25 introduction or an initial contact; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5696 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 A Repeat that, please.
2 Q Well, did it occur to you when you joined --
3 A Yes.
4 Q -- that it might be a source of contacts, that you
5 could contact somebody saying that we are in similar lines
6 of business, we might do business together, and, by the
7 way, like you, I am a
member of Who's Who Worldwide?
8 A I can't say that that was my thought process, no.
9 Q Well, did you think that it would help you in gaining
10 an entree with someone else that you both would be members
11 of Who's Who Worldwide?
12 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.
13 Q Well, I will let you explain that one.
14 A I thought I would be put into contact with other
15 people, as you normally are in some sort of an
16 association, and that, you know, I would build those
17 contracts.
18 For example, I belong to the Housewares Club of
19 Chicago, the largest housewares club in Chicago. But I
20 don't go up to people saying you are in the housewares
21 club, too. I am put in contact with those people. They
22 are around me. There is an assumption if you are there
23 and you are in contact with people in those context, it is 24 an opportunity. 25 Q
Mr. Skonie, the Housewares Club in Chicago is
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5697 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 specifically for people in the same general business; is
2 that correct?
3 A No. Anybody can join.
4 Q Well, would a doctor join it?
5 A It's possible. I don't know if we have any doctor
6 members, but he wouldn't be precluded from joining it.
7 Q Isn't the purpose for the people in the housewares
8 business to have a common organization?
9 A It is a charitable purpose actually.
10 Q Okay, but at the same time the people generally in it
11 are in the housewares business, that's how they got their
12 name; is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And those are the people who would each tend to want
15 to network with each other; is that right?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q When you joined Who's Who Worldwide you
didn't think
18 it was just consisting of people who were in the same
19 industry or business that you were in, did you?
20 A No.
21 Q You understood it was all kind of businesses; is that
22 right?
23 A That's right. 24 Q So, in terms of -- you didn't -- in terms of 25 networking, did you not understand that it would be up to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5698 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 you to seek out those members who had something in common
2 with you and attempt to network with them, just as they
3 might do it with you?
4 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.
5 Q Well, did it occur to you that you might have to do
6 something yourself in terms of contacting members in terms
7 of networking?
8 A What do you mean by that when you say "contacting?"
9 Q Were you expecting after joining Who's Who W
orldwide
10 to just sit back and wait for other members to call you
11 and get business that way?
12 A No. I expected that there would be functions, or the
13 opportunity to meet people.
14 Q And you never found out whether or not that was so
15 because you decided not to proceed once you got the bill
16 for the directory; is that correct?
17 A I really wasn't interested in contacting people out
18 of a directory, no.
19 Q Your business is located in Arlington Heights?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And do you know if there are not business people who
22 are members of Who's Who Worldwide who are in Arlington
23 Heights? 24 A No. 25 Q Do you know a Mr. Ganofski, G A N O F S K I?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5699 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 THE COURT: Mr. Trabulus, it is improper
2 recross-examination. I wil
l not allow it. You could have
3 brought that in before. You did not. It was not raised
4 on redirect, and I am precluding it.
5 MR. TRABULUS: I thought it had to do with the
6 question asked on cross-examination -- on redirect --
7 THE COURT: What question?
8 MR. TRABULUS: The question asked by Ms. Scott as
9 to nomination.
10 THE COURT: You are trying to show that he was
11 perhaps nominated by one of those people?
12 MR. TRABULUS: One of them.
13 THE COURT: Go ahead. I thought you were trying
14 to as you certainly could, to show that there were people
15 in the industry that he could network with. That would be
16 improper recross-examination. And we don't want to
17 prolong this, do we?
18 MR. TRABULUS: I will just go through the names
19 quickly.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 Q Joel, A R R E A Z O L A, Arreazola.
22 A Don't know hi
m.
23 Q Kenneth A. Becker. Debra Domkowski, 24 D O M K O W S K I. 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5700 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 Q Ronald Duda, D U D A?
2 A No.
3 Q George R. Fisher, Jr.
4 A No.
5 Q F I S H E R.
6 Earl Freeman, F R E E M A N.
7 A No.
8 Q John Hughes?
9 A No.
10 Q Anita L. Johnson?
11 A No.
12 Q Peter J. La Salle, L A S A L L E?
13 A No.
14 Q Jacqueline L. Lambe, with an E at the end, spelled
15 like the animal with an E?
16 A No.
17 Q M C C E L L A N, so it is John B. McCellan, I
18 misread it.
19 John M. Scanlon, S C A N L O N?
20 A No.
21 Q And a Mr. Rifat, R I F A T?
22 A No.
23 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions. 24 THE COURT: Anything else? 25 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5701 Skonie-recross/Dunn
1 MR. DUNN: I do, your Honor, one or two.
2
3 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. DUNN:
5 Q Mr. Skonie, you said, I believe, on redirect
6 examination, that you believe that if you took a phone
7 book or just some book of names, and tried to write
8 somebody who was a CEO, and turn it into some business
9 opportunity, it is your position that you wouldn't even
10 have gotten a response to that?
11 A Depending on the person. I guess the example was the
12 chairman of the board of General Electric.
13 Q If you wanted to contact somebody and put the seal of
14 Who's Who on your letterhead, and wrote it to another
15 member stating you would like to meet with this person
16 about a possible business opportunity, is it your position
17 you wouldn't have gotte
n a response? Yes or no?
18 A I can't answer that in a yes or no.
19 Q Because you never tried; is that right?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Now, sir, your main interest was developing your
22 business; is that correct?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q Networking, is that right? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5702 Skonie-recross/Dunn
1 Q And if you had a good opportunity to network with
2 other people in similar lines of business, you would try
3 to take advantage of it; is that correct?
4 A I would try to take advantage of opportunities,
5 that's correct.
6 Q To network, correct?
7 A Right.
8 Q And whether you got those names, those people to
9 network with, from a mailing list or anywhere else, if you
10 could get a benefit from it, you would want to do it,
11 correct?
12 A That is correct.
13 MR. DUNN: No further questions, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Anything else?
15 MS. SCOTT: Yes, your Honor.
16
17 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
18 BY MS. SCOTT:
19 Q Mr. Skonie, you were asked a moment ago as to whether
20 you would sit back and wait to be contacted with -- from
21 other members of Who's Who Worldwide. Do you remember
22 that questions?
23 A Uh-huh. 24 THE COURT: Yes? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5703 Skonie-recross/Scott
1 Q Do you remember Mr. Trabulus suggesting you had not
2 given the company a chance when you decided not to
3 purchase the directory?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Now, during the time --
6 A Could you come by the microphone, because I can't
7 hear you.
8 Q Oh, sure.
9 During the time tha
t you were a member, were you
10 ever notified of any meetings or conferences or functions
11 involving members of Who's Who Worldwide?
12 A No.
13 Q Were you ever sent any copies of the magazine while
14 you were a member?
15 A Not to my recollection.
16 Q Now, you were asked some more questions about that
17 questionnaire you filled out in 1995?
18 A Right.
19 Q Do you remember being asked whether you had actually
20 written the word "nomination" or "nominate" in your
21 answers to questions 15, 25 and 26?
22 A Right.
23 Q And you testified that you did not use that word in 24 answer to any of those questions? 25 A Right.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5704 Skonie-recross/Scott
1 Q Is that correct?
2 A Right.
3 Q Now, did you use that word in answer to any other
4 questio
ns in the answers to the questionnaire?
5 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Overruled. Do you have any such
7 answers?
8 MS. SCOTT: Yes.
9 Q Referring you to question three.
10 THE COURT: Tell us about it. We will take your
11 word for it.
12 Q Question 3.
13 A Okay.
14 Q Did you use the word "nominate" in your answer to
15 that question?
16 A Yes.
17 Q What about your answers to question 14B, as in
18 Baker?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q Now, Mr. Skonie, did you pay $290 to network with
21 people whose names were taken from a mailing list?
22 A No.
23 Q And at the time that you made this purchase, if 24 people's names, including your own, had been taken from 25 mailing lists, is that something you would have wanted to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5705 Skonie-
recross/Scott
1 know before making a purchase?
2 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 MR. WHITE: No further questions.
5 THE COURT: Anything else?
6 MR. TRABULUS: Very briefly.
7 THE COURT: I am trying to delay our recess so we
8 can conclude this witness so he can get back to work
9 today. That's my purpose.
10
11 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. TRABULUS:
13 Q Mr. Skonie, Ms. Scott asked you a couple of questions
14 in which you did use the word "nominate"; is that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q One was question three?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And that was, what were you told about the company,
19 its directories and your potential inclusion in them? And
20 your answer was, I had been nominated for inclusion by
21 someone; is that correct?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q And the other one was question 1
4; is that correct? 24 Is it 14-B -- I am sorry, 14-B. 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5706 Skonie-recross/Trabulus
1 Q And the question there is: Were you told whether
2 your name had been obtained from a mailing list? Did you
3 ask the salesman -- salesperson where they had obtained
4 your name? And you answered, I asked -- they said I was
5 nominated, but they could not reveal by whom.
6 A That's correct.
7 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, Mr. Skonie.
8 THE COURT: Anyone else?
9 MR. NELSON: Very briefly.
10
11 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. NELSON:
13 Q Mr. Skonie, you had sent in your nominations --
14 A Would you start over, I didn't hear you.
15 Q I am sorry.
16 You sent in your ballot for inclusion in Who's
17 Who Worldwide in mid-September, 1993; is that correct?
18 A I guess so, yeah.
19 Q And you received the invoice, which is dated
20 September 21st, 1993, and that's Exhibit 67-B; is that
21 right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay. 24 Now, you don't have with you today -- and we have 25 not been provided with -- the second invoice that was sent
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5707 Skonie-recross/Nelson
1 to you for purposes of the acquisition of the registry; is
2 that right?
3 A I don't believe I ever got an invoice for the
4 registry.
5 Q But you were contacted with respect to that; is that
6 correct?
7 A On the telephone, yes.
8 Q And that was in December of 1993; is that right?
9 A It was some short months after this.
10 Q So, in essence, when you testified that you hadn't
11 received anything from Who's Who Worldwide between the
12 time you
agreed to join and the time that you notified
13 Who's Who that you wished to cancel your membership, that
14 would have been around a 90 day period of time; is that
15 correct?
16 A I didn't notify them.
17 Q You spoke with someone on the telephone; is that
18 correct?
19 A They called me, and we had a conversation, and I told
20 them I was not interested in the directory.
21 Q And you also told them, if I am correct, that you
22 weren't interested in your membership; is that correct?
23 A Repeat that. 24 Q You weren't interested in your membership either; is 25 that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5708 Skonie-recross/Nelson
1 A I told them I wasn't interested in pursuing their
2 offerings any longer.
3 Q You had given them a 90 day period of time; is that
4 correct?
5 A That's corr
ect.
6 THE COURT: Anything else?
7 MS. SCOTT: Nothing further.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 You are excused.
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
11 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the
12 witness stand.)
13 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we are going to
14 take a ten-minute recess. Please do not discuss the case,
15 and keep an open mind.
16 Please recess yourselves.
17 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
18 courtroom.)
19
20 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5709
1 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
2 courtroom.)
3 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
4 jury.
5 You may proceed.
6 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, we will play a short
7 series of ta
pe excerpts now.
8 THE COURT: Hold it a minute, Mr. White.
9 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
10 proceedings.)
11 THE COURT: You may proceed.
12 MR. WHITE: The first tape is 1356. The
13 transcript is the excerpt marked 1356-C, as in Charley.
14 The date is December 8th, 1994 and it is a call to
15 Sterling Who's Who.
16 (Tape is played.)
17 THE COURT: What number was that?
18 MR. WHITE: 1356-C, like in Charley.
19 THE COURT: Oh, C, I am sorry.
20 MR. NEVILLE: Your Honor, could Mr. White explain
21 who the salesperson was who made those utterances.
22 MR. WHITE: It is reflected on the transcript.
23 MR. NEVILLE: Well, could you say it? 24 MR. WHITE: It is Mr. Hammond -- I am sorry, it 25 is Mark Johnson.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5710
1 THE COURT: Mark Johnson
is the salesperson?
2 MR. WHITE: Yes, Mark Johnson.
3 The next one is 1307. The excerpt is 1307-B,
4 like in baker. The date is October 24th, 1994. It is a
5 call to Sterling Who's Who. And the salesperson is Scott
6 Matthews.
7 (Tape is played.)
8 MR. WHITE: The next one is 1309. The transcript
9 is 1309-D, for Dog. The date is October 27th, 1994. The
10 call is to Sterling Who's Who. And the employees on the
11 recording are Andrea Franklin and Mike Powers.
12 THE COURT: Mike Powers?
13 MR. WHITE: Yes.
14 (Tape is played.)
15 MR. WHITE: The next one is Exhibit 1331. The
16 date is December 14th, 1994. The call is to Sterling.
17 And the salesperson is Scott Matthews. The transcript is
18 1331-D, D like in Dog.
19 (Tape is played.)
20 MR. NEVILLE: That was Scott Matthews; is that
21 correct?
22 MR. WHITE: Correct.
23 MR. SCHOER: At Sterling? 24 MR. NEVILLE: At Sterling? 25 MR. WHITE: Yes. As I said before, that's
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5711
1 correct, Mr. Neville.
2 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you.
3 MR. WHITE: The next exhibit is 1305. The
4 transcript is 1305-A, like in Apple. The date is
5 September 6th, 1994. The call is to Who's Who Worldwide.
6 The employee on the tape is Roseanne Patton, P A T T O N.
7 (Tape is played.)
8 MR. WHITE: The next is 1334. The transcript is
9 1334-C, for Charley. The date is December 19th, 1994.
10 The call is to Who's Who Worldwide. And the employee is
11 Jill Barnes.
12 (Tape is played.)
13 MR. WHITE: Next is 1335. The transcript is
14 1335-B, for Baker. The date is December 19th, 1994. And
15 the call is to Sterling Who's Who. The employee is Mike
16 Phillips.
17 (Tape is played.)
18 MR. WHITE: Next is 1336. The transcript is
19 1336-D, for Dog. The date is September 20th, 1994. The
20 call is to Who's Who Worldwide. And the employee is John
21 Stevens.
22 (Tape is played.)
23 MR. WHITE: Next is 1342. The transcript is 24 1342-D, for Dog. The date is January 3rd, 1995. The call 25 is to Sterling Who's Who. And the salesperson is Barbara
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5712
1 McCabe, M C C A B E.
2 THE COURT: This is 1342 --
3 MR. WHITE: D for Dog, your Honor.
4 (Tape is played.)
5 MR. WHITE: Next is 1352. The transcript is
6 1352-A, for Apple. The date is April 21st, 1993. The
7 call is to Who's Who Worldwide and the salesperson is
8 Larry DeWitt, D E W I T T.
9 (Tape is played.)
10 MR. WHITE: That's it for the tapes for now, your
11 Honor.
12 The government calls Alan Saffer, S A F F E R.
13 THE COURT: Step up and raise your right hand.
14
15 A L A N S A F F E R ,
16 called as a witness, having been first
17 duly sworn, was examined and testified
18 as follows:
19
20 THE COURT: Please be seated.
21 State your name and spell your entire name,
22 please.
23 THE WITNESS: My name is Alan Saffer. 24 S A F F E R. 25 THE COURT: How do you spell your first name?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5713 Saffer-direct/White
1 THE WITNESS: A L A N.
2 THE COURT: You may proceed.
3
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. WHITE:
6 Q Mr. Saffer, can you tell us how old you are?
7 A 59 years of age.
8 Q Where do you live?
9 A In Valley Stream, New York.
10 Q Are you married?
11 A Yes,
I am.
12 Q Can you tell us how far you went in school?
13 A On a college level, six months, studying drafting at
14 Mechanics Institute in New York.
15 Q Are you currently employed?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And where do you work?
18 A Credit America.
19 Q And what sort of business is Credit America?
20 A They are a commercial finance company. They
21 specialize in leases and mortgages for people in the
22 petroleum industry.
23 Q And can you explain for us what sort of work you do 24 there? 25 A In -- I do telemarketing. And I set up appointments
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5714 Saffer-direct/White
1 for their sales staff. And also I am starting to do sales
2 on my own in the afternoon on a commission basis.
3 Q Now, did you ever work for a company known as Who's
4 Who Worldwide Registry?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 Q What was your position when you worked there?
7 A My title was associate director.
8 Q Can you describe briefly what you did as an associate
9 director?
10 A I would call people by telephone and try to sell them
11 a membership in Who's Who Worldwide.
12 Q Approximately when did you start working at Who's Who
13 Worldwide?
14 A Approximately July of 1990.
15 Q When did you stop working there?
16 A That was March 30th, 1995.
17 Q Why is it you stopped working there in March of '95?
18 A The postal inspectors came into the offices and said
19 that the company was under investigation.
20 Q Did anything happen to you on that day?
21 A Yes. I was arrested.
22 Q Now were you later charged with a crime?
23 A Yes, I was. 24 Q And what were you charged with? 25 A Conspiracy to commit mail fraud.
HARRY
RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5715 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q And what did that charge relate to?
2 A Excuse me?
3 Q What did that charge relate to?
4 A It related to statements that I made over the
5 telephone and misrepresentations that I made in my sales
6 presentation.
7 Q At Who's Who?
8 A At Who's Who.
9 Q Now, did you commit that crime?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q Did you plead guilty to conspiracy to commit mail
12 fraud?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q And can you tell us approximately when you pled
15 guilty?
16 A It was November of 1997.
17 Q Now, have you committed any other crimes besides
18 that?
19 A Yes. That was during a civil trial in connection
20 with the Marquis Who's Who, I believe.
21 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor. May we
22 approach?
23 THE COURT: Yes. Come up
. 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5716 Saffer-direct/White
1 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place
2 at the sidebar.)
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I am seeking to
5 preclude eliciting any testimony concerning this.
6 I believe, based upon what I understand the
7 government intends to do, is they are going to elicit that
8 this man committed perjury at the Marquis civil trial.
9 Now, that would be, I suppose 404(b) evidence
10 against Mr. Gordon, because I imagine he will say
11 Mr. Gordon put him up to it.
12 We have no charges in this case of Mr. Gordon
13 inducing anybody else to commit perjury. The only
14 allegations of perjury in this case in that civil trial or
15 anywhere relate to Mr. Gordon's own testimony in that
16 civil trial. This is prejudicial
. We were told there is
17 no 404(b) evidence to be admitted. And I seek to preclude
18 it.
19 MR. WHITE: If they don't want to cross-examine
20 him about it, I will not mention it.
21 THE COURT: They obviously are not going to
22 cross-examine him about it.
23 THE COURT: No one is going to attack him as 24 having fabricated in that earlier trial? If that's the 25 case I will be glad to not ask him.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5717 Saffer-direct/White
1 MR. JENKS: I am not agreeing to that.
2 MR. DUNN: Can we have a moment on that?
3 THE COURT: Sure.
4 (Defense counsel confer.)
5 THE COURT: What do you intend to bring out with
6 this witness, Mr. White?
7 MR. WHITE: I intend to bring out that he --
8 simply that he lied at that earlier proceeding.
9 THE COURT: That is not another crime th
at he is
10 accused of; is that right?
11 MR. WHITE: His cooperation agreement says that
12 the government will not charge him with perjury in
13 connection with that lawsuit.
14 THE COURT: He was never charged with perjury,
15 nor was he convicted of perjury?
16 MR. WHITE: Correct.
17 THE COURT: So that's out of the way.
18 When you say did you commit other crimes, that's
19 a very subjective thing. He was never charged with any
20 crime.
21 MR. WHITE: Correct.
22 THE COURT: You want to bring out he committed
23 perjury? 24 MR. WHITE: Only if they are. 25 THE COURT: They are obviously going to ask about
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5718 Saffer-direct/White
1 it. So you can anticipate it.
2 Be careful about it. Mr. Trabulus is going to
3 watch it closely and object when he wants t
o object in
4 addition to this objection.
5 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
6 THE COURT: You have a right to make further
7 objections all along. I will let him bring it out.
8 Please bring it out quickly and get to it.
9 If they come out on cross-examination, and have a
10 field day with it, then you can come back on redirect.
11 MR. WHITE: For purposes of making sure we comply
12 with your Honor's ruling, can I ask a leading question,
13 like, were you untruthful in your testimony in the prior
14 case?
15 THE COURT: Yes. I will allow that.
16 MR. WHITE: Okay.
17
18 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes
19 place in open court.)
20 Q Mr. Saffer, you mentioned a lawsuit between Marquis
21 Who's Who and Who's Who Worldwide?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And were you untruthful in your testimony in 24 connection with that proceeding? 25 A
Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5719 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q Now, at the time that you pled guilty to conspiracy
2 to commit mail fraud, did you enter into an agreement with
3 the government?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q And are you testifying here today as part of your
6 agreement with the government?
7 A Yes, I am.
8 Q Can you tell us, what is your understanding that you
9 have to do under that agreement?
10 A I have to report any criminal activity, to tell the
11 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; and to
12 agree to testify in court.
13 Q And what is your understanding of what the government
14 has agreed to do if you cooperate?
15 A The government has agreed to send a 5K letter to
16 Judge Spatt, indicating that I had fully cooperated with
17 the cooperation agreement.
18 Q An
d what is your understanding of what the judge can
19 do if the government does write this letter?
20 A Judge Spatt can reduce my sentence.
21 Q Now, have you been sentenced yet?
22 A No, I haven't.
23 Q What is your understanding of what the maximum 24 sentence you can face is? 25 A A term of five years.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5720 Saffer-direct/White
1 Q And can the judge who sentences you impose a fine?
2 A Yes, he can.
3 Q And what is your understanding of what the maximum
4 fine is?
5 A The maximum fine could be $250,000.
6 Q And when you are sentenced, can you be required to
7 make restitution for the losses caused as a result of the
8 fraud that you participated in?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Have you received any promises from the government
11 about what sentence you will receive?
12 A No.
13 Q Have you received any promises from anyone about what
14 sentence you will receive?
15 A No, I have not.
16 Q What is your understanding of who will ultimately
17 determine what your sentence will be?
18 A From what I understand, Judge Spatt will determine my
19 sentence.
20 Q Now, while you were employed at Who's Who Worldwide,
21 did you ever hear the term "black room?"
22 A Yes, I have.
23 Q Tell me was the black room was? 24 A The black room was a separate room from the other 25 part of the company, which housed approximately ten or
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5721 Saffer-direct/White
1 twelve of some of the top salespersons at the company,
2 Who's Who Worldwide.
3 Q Now, while the black room was in existence, did you
4 sit in the black room?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 Q Now, do you know a woman named Laura Weitz, or Laura
7 Winters?
8 A Yes, I do.
9 Q And how do you know her?
10 MR. LEE: Objection, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: On what ground?
12 MR. LEE: The instruction. There was a prior --
13 THE COURT: Pardon me?
14 MR. LEE: May I approach, your Honor?
15 THE COURT: No. It is not necessary.
16 Overruled.
17 MR. WHITE: If I rephrase the question I believe
18 it will address Mr. Lee's concern.
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 Q Did Ms. Weitz work at Who's Who Worldwide?
21 A Yes, she did.
22 Q When you arrived at the company in mid-1990, did she
23 work there? 24 A Yes, she did. 25 Q Already?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5722 Saffer-direct/White
1 A Yes.
2 Q Now, while the black room was in effect, was in
3 operation, did Ms. We
itz work in the black room?
4 A Yes, for a period of time.
5 Q Now, do you know a person named Annette Haley?
6 A Yes, I do.
7 Q How do you know Annette Haley?
8 A She also was a salesperson at Who's Who Worldwide,
9 and she was in the black room, too.
10 Q And can you tell us approximately when Ms. Haley
11 joined Who's Who Worldwide?
12 A It was approximately 1994.
13 Q Now, do you know a man named Scott Michaelson?
14 A Yes, I do.
15 Q How do you know Mr. Michaelson?
16 A He was a salesperson at Who's Who Worldwide. And he
17 sat in the black room also.
18 Q Can you recall approximately when Mr. Michaelson